[mkaresh]

I doubt GM would ever sell it to Toyota. Better to get nearly everyone else using it and claim it as the standard, leaving Toyota alone. GM's global competition is Toyota, not any of the other competitors. At least for now.

The PR spin by having Ford, Chrysler, Daimler-Benz, BMW, and all of GM using a specific hybrid solution is huge. Simply having ads that say: "Only one hybrid system was good enough for BMW & Mercedes. That was the one developed by GM."

I wonder if they'll share with Honda and Nissan. My guess would be no. The Two-Mode offers a fuel advantage that can put GM ahead of the others in terms of most fuel efficient vehicles. Why offer your competitive advantage to those you're trying to dethrone.

Nice bit on the PR. But when it comes to selling to others, all of these companies readily sell each other technology because they want the others to sell to them. They also regularly exchange rights to use one another's patents.

In general, companies seek a one-year exclusive on new tech for themselves, maybe two, after that it's sell, sell, sell.

 

[DuSpinnst]

I thought the two mode trans was a development between BMW, Chrysler & GM. So wouldn't it be the three of them that are anxious to sell it and not just GM?

There are TWO pieces of transmission hardware (Three if you count "F" hardware).

Right now the "C" hardware is made by Daimler in Stuttgart and is used by Mercedes and BMW. The "T" hardware is made by GM in Baltimore and is used by GM and Chrysler. The "F" hardware is made in another GM plant (I think) and is ONLY used by GM.

Chrysler is working on the "F" hardware with GM, but has a ZERO production commitment to use it (so Software cost is shared but manufacturing is not). A similar deal with the "C" hardware is in place only it is GM with the ZERO production commitment.

Also since the split of DCX, Daimler has a ZERO production commitment to "T" and Chrysler to "C," but since they still work on software as one team and since the numbers haven't changed due to the split. this is meaningless.

GM needs to sell the "F" hardware and possibly the "T" hardware to more people to not lose money on having a limited run of transmissions (economies of scale). Chrysler is abandoning abandoning the "T" hardware for the Durango after Newark closes and it moves to the Grand Cherokee platform. However Chrysler will use the "T" hardware in the Ram.

Gen2 is suppose to replace the "T" and the "C" hardware with the "R" hardware (a universal RWD version). The transmission will still be sourced from two plants but all components will be identical (where as now only MOST components are identical between "T" and "C").

 

[DuSpinnst]

Ctaylor
I was involved in the development of both the Saturn two shaft clutch to clutch auto and the Hydra 6 speed. I know exactly how they work.

It still uses a Torque Converter. DSG Transmissions like VW's don't use Torque Converter. When people say "dual clutch" transmission they mean a transmission that uses a traditional clutch like in a manual.

 

[GMforME]

Mike when I used the term semantics I was referring to the gear combinations. stacked VS parallel shaft.

That said very simply you could make a saturn trans shift like a DSG. How you ask. Simply put the speed of gear changes are a result of fluid fill time on the engaging pack coupled with fluid exhaust time on the releasing pack and making the shifts full manual from discrete inputs to the software algorithm. Jack the line pressure, enlarge the exhaust holes on the clutch drums etc.





A transmission that also simulates the DSG type shift is the Racing Lenco used in Pro stock cars. Each module consists of a planetary and a spring loaded poppet band. each module you stack up on the back adds a gear. When its shifted the the spring loaded band snaps over the planetary drum instantly stopping it and the vehicle steps up a gear instantly. Put high pressure solenoid controls on the bands coupled with a very basic software program for discrete paddle shift inputs and walla DSG type shifting.

What I'm saying is DSG is an excellent execution however no great new wheel was invented. All the technology to create the shift speeds and patterns of a DSG already existed. I have to give them credit for an excellent execution though.

DuSpinst yes I under stand that.

 

[PRO_USA1776]

Finally! I am both A GM and Ford fan. I am not sure I could take it much longer seeing Ford not work with GM on the dual mode! I also think GM should work with ford on the Hyraulic Launch Assist!

 

[PRO_USA1776]

Nice bit on the PR. But when it comes to selling to others, all of these companies readily sell each other technology because they want the others to sell to them. They also regularly exchange rights to use one another's patents.

In general, companies seek a one-year exclusive on new tech for themselves, maybe two, after that it's sell, sell, sell.

I think you are blowin' smoke, I doubt GM would sell the TECH to any of its asian competitors. It gives them too much of an advantage right now!

 

[DuSpinnst]

I think you are blowin' smoke, I doubt GM would sell the TECH to any of its asian competitors. It gives them too much of an advantage right now!

Depends on the price. If Toyota offered GM a lot of money they would share the Hybrid tech, and use the money to speed refreshing cars. After all the Hybrid is just the powertrain, the rest of the vehicle around the powertrain matters as well you know.

 

[PRO_USA1776]

Depends on the price. If Toyota offered GM a lot of money they would share the Hybrid tech, and use the money to speed refreshing cars. After all the Hybrid is just the powertrain, the rest of the vehicle around the powertrain matters as well you know.

Wasn't it Toyota that was pedling its own hybrid drive just a yr or so ago? Why would they want a piece of GM's tech? Maybe because it is superior?

 

[F14CRAZY]

Powershift is a John Deere transmission

 

[uncledestroy]

I don't think there would be a problem with GM selling this to Toyota. They simply wouldn't allow them in on a long-term contract. That way, you pick up short term sales without guaranteeing them access to your technology. I think this type of contract was used when Honda sold engines to GM for Saturn.

 

[eaton53]

I don't think there would be a problem with GM selling this to Toyota. They simply wouldn't allow them in on a long-term contract. That way, you pick up short term sales without guaranteeing them access to your technology. I think this type of contract was used when Honda sold engines to GM for Saturn.

I don't think there's any way that happens.
Toyota might as well go on TV and admit that HSD doesn't make the cut.

 

[Joe in T.O.]

I don't think there would be a problem with GM selling this to Toyota. They simply wouldn't allow them in on a long-term contract. That way, you pick up short term sales without guaranteeing them access to your technology. I think this type of contract was used when Honda sold engines to GM for Saturn.

GM already partners with Toyota on the Vibe/Matrix so it I agree with you that it wouldn't be a problem. Honda did sell engines for GM for Saturn but what a lot of people don't realize is that in return, GM sold diesel engines to Honda (for European use). Honda has done a remarkable job keeping this hush, hush.

 

[PRO_USA1776]

well I think GMs long term viability rests on taking it to asian companies not to Ford and Chrysler.

 

[mkaresh]

I think you are blowin' smoke, I doubt GM would sell the TECH to any of its asian competitors. It gives them too much of an advantage right now!

Did you happen to read the article that sparked this thread? It says GM is anxious to sell, not that others are anxious to buy. If the advantage were so large, I think the positions might be different.

The problem appears to be that the technology, especially at the volumes GM will be able to sell alone, is very expensive. Great technology that people aren't willing to pay for doesn't provide much of an advantage.

I'd also like to see some actual EPA numbers before concluding there's a huge advantage over the systems Toyota uses in its Lexus cars. People around here like to toss around high MPG numbers. They might be disappointed. Or I might be surprised.

 

[asim]

GM holds the patents. GM has been using this technology in city buses for years.

And yet they are just getting them out right now. Sad.

But anyhow, yeah, I think Chrysler wanted to get it before, but with the new selling of Chrysler and all the new stuff, who knows if they are still interested in getting the hybrid transmissions. I know it was co-developed, but it was more co-developed with the Daimler part of the company...

 

[mkaresh]

My understanding is that there will definitely be a hybrid Durango, and not long after the Tahoe.