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SOURCE: Automotive News

GM and Chrysler mull job-sparing deal for U.S. aid
October 27, 2008 - 12:01 am ET

DETROIT (Reuters) -- General Motors and Chrysler LLC's owners are discussing a merger that would keep some of Chrysler's operations intact and save jobs with the aim of securing U.S. government financial aid the high-stakes deal would require, people familiar with the talks said yesterday.

A merger under these terms would give control to GM but leave Chrysler's owner, Cerberus Capital Management, with stake of less than 10 percent in the combined company, according to the sources who were not authorized to discuss the talks publicly.

Such a merger would shake up the U.S. industrial landscape and create an automaker with about a third of the U.S. car market by sales. But its immediate success would hinge on the willingness of the next U.S. administration to step up with billions of dollars in immediate aid.

The amount required would dwarf the $1.5 billion in loan guarantees that kept Chrysler from failure in the industry's last government bailout almost 30 years ago, the sources said.

It would also require the backing of GM's board, which has been steadfast in backing CEO Rick Wagoner through a painful and so-far failed restructuring effort since 2005. The board has withheld judgment on the proposed merger so far.

A deal brokered with the support of U.S. lawmakers would leave GM executives walking a delicate balance in managing a bigger but still deeply troubled automaker.

Costs and production would have to be slashed. But the merged company would also have to show it represented a less painful alternative for American workers and suppliers than the failure of one or both of the struggling auto giants.

"It's clear that there are three parties at the table. There's GM, Cerberus and then there's the government," said one person briefed on the talks.

GM, Chrysler and Cerberus declined to comment on Sunday.

Until now, attention has focused on the prospect of a GM acquisition in which the larger automaker would move quickly to cull Chrysler's slow-selling vehicle line-up and cut more than half of Chrysler's 66,000 employees.

Analysts have been skeptical that a deal even under those ruthless terms could deliver sufficient savings since GM and Chrysler face many of the same problems, including an excess of workers, dealers and factories, along with product line-ups that rely heavily on sales of gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs.

LENDER OF LAST RESORT?

While a deal that keeps more operations afloat would risk deepening those problems of excess capacity, it could also win government backing and provide GM with much-needed liquidity.

Analysts say GM would also almost surely opt to shut down Chrysler's separate supply of engines, transmissions and powertrain components and merge those with its own.

GM has failed to find an outside investor to help fund its acquisition at a time when global auto sales are slowing and sales in the U.S. market are dropping toward the lowest level in two decades, sources said last week.

In addition, Chrysler creditors have been wary of restructuring its $7 billion bank term loan due in 2013, a person familiar with the financing effort said last week.

That has put the focus on the U.S. government as lender or investor of last resort to save the deal, sources said Sunday.

By retaining a stake in the combined GM/Chrysler, Cerberus hopes to benefit from an auto recovery, they said. It acquired an 80.1 percent stake in Chrysler in a 2007 deal with Daimler AG.

GM sees a retained Cerberus stake as helping to align the interests of finance company GMAC with sales for its brands including Chevrolet and Cadillac, helping to bridge a widening gap between GMAC and GM's more than 6,500 U.S. dealers.

MORE HERE
 

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The GM/Chrysler merger is a done deal. We better get use to Dodge & Jeep with a cheap small GM on the side of the door.

To be honest this deal could work if GM had the know how to make it happen. Dodge trucks have very a loyal following and Jeep is a brand star that just needs to get back to its roots.

Also, this money that GM/Chrysler is getting from the feds will be used to payout dealers that will be forced to close, union labor early retirement/buyouts and the closing of certain brands.
 

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Why has the GM's board stood by Rick Wagoner even though, he was the architect of a failed restructuring of GM. Why should the US Government have faith in GM with Wagoner at the helm. Seams like a pretty big gamble for the US tax payers to take with this leadership group.
 

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The part about GM not wanting Chrysler's engines and transmissions is interesting. So much for the Hemi. I think GM's engines and transmissions are better anyways, especially that garbage 4cyl Chrysler has that is a joint venture with Mitsubishi and Hyndai wtf?
 

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Analysts say GM would also almost surely opt to shut down Chrysler's separate supply of engines, transmissions and powertrain components and merge those with its own.
This would take years though, wouldn't it? If adding the Aveo-clone G3 to the Pontiac market has taken several months (since we first heard it was coming), or releasing the already designed Lacrosse has been delayed several months, how long is it going to take to put totally incompatible GM powertrains in Chrysler vehicles?!? I'd think they'd have to wait until it's time to redesign the models... engineering and validating the swap (including all electronics), modifying production lines... this would cost an absolute fortune I'd think, and goes totally aginst GM's need to spend as little money as they can.
 

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I doubt GM would shut down all of chrysler's powertrains. The Hemi is better than any GM V8 (not that they aren't close). It would be dumb of them to stop work on the new phoenix engine, that'll be one of the best V6s on the market when it comes out, again better than any V6 GM will have to offer.

I doubt congress approves anything like this, everyone is sour to bailouts right now. It would be a politically bad move for anyone to vote in favor of this.
 

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I doubt GM would shut down all of chrysler's powertrains. The Hemi is better than any GM V8 (not that they aren't close). It would be dumb of them to stop work on the new phoenix engine, that'll be one of the best V6s on the market when it comes out, again better than any V6 GM will have to offer.
I disagree about the Hemi being better than any of GM's V8's. As for the Phoenix, no one knows until it is completed and actually goes through performance and reliability testing.
 

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I disagree about the Hemi being better than any of GM's V8's. As for the Phoenix, no one knows until it is completed and actually goes through performance and reliability testing.
The Hemi is better than any of GM's OHV V8s, especially with the VCT update they put this year. The updated 4.7L is a great engine as well... It's the V6 and 4 bangers that are bad. I can't believe they still put the 3.3L on Caravans, my '95 voyager had it. It was a good engine for its time but.. in 2008?
 

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Yea lets give more money to gm sure that will make them a better company. They had money all of this time and they lost it all. Sold most of their assests and now they are broke. What do you think that giving them more money will make them better and different company. First thing that needs to change is leadership and then gm needs to change the way it is doign business. all of these brands are not the way to do business. I say do not give a penny to gm until leadership changes and gm changes the way it is doing business untill then it will be same old crapy gm.
 

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The Hemi is better than any of GM's OHV V8s, especially with the VCT update they put this year. The updated 4.7L is a great engine as well... It's the V6 and 4 bangers that are bad. I can't believe they still put the 3.3L on Caravans, my '95 voyager had it. It was a good engine for its time but.. in 2008?
Um.... no. The HEMI does not come close to the small block.. no V8 does. Which is why it is used throughout the world on not only GM products but many other automakers and racers too. If the merger happens the hemi IS DEAD. Long live the small block!
 

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The Hemi is better than any of GM's OHV V8s, especially with the VCT update they put this year. The updated 4.7L is a great engine as well... It's the V6 and 4 bangers that are bad. I can't believe they still put the 3.3L on Caravans, my '95 voyager had it. It was a good engine for its time but.. in 2008?
GM Gen IV V8 > Hemi. Hemis make more power in a given displacment, but the Gen IVs are smoother and far more fuel-efficient. Plus, the Hemi is more complex in terms of it's design, making it more costly to manufacture.

The bottom line is simple: GM has plenty of OHV V8 engine capacity. Couple that with the mileage advantage it has over the Hemi, and it doesn't take a genius to predict the demise of the Chrysler engine.
 

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SOURCE: Automotive News

A merger under these terms would give control to GM but leave Chrysler's owner, Cerberus Capital Management, with stake of less than 10 percent in the combined company, according to the sources who were not authorized to discuss the talks publicly.

MORE HERE
In a recent article posted here, the writer said something about Cerberus getting GMAC + Chrysler financial. But a decent stake (under 10%) in GM is pretty fair. They came up with the money at a critical time.

If this deal pulls through and the Volt will be acceptable, I will change my nickname to 'Wagoner fan'.
In the last decades, all the CEOs having lots of cash and market share, let the quality slip didn't dealed properly with the unions and damaged the image of the brands. Wagoner gets the company through a recession, oil price wars, perception issues and still improves quality, shapes GM into a global company, deals properly with the unions and tries to increase retail market share while also fighting a thriving competitor. GM never had a rival like Toyota is now.

Also this Chrysler deal is great. Get for pennies a big company with significant market share. Avoids letting it be split into pieces or get in the hands of more or less friendly foreigners.

I'll praise Wagoner a little more... Well, he may not be a genious but he is rigurous and wise. He promoted the right people (Henderson and Lutz).
 

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The Hemi is better than any of GM's OHV V8s, especially with the VCT update they put this year. The updated 4.7L is a great engine as well... It's the V6 and 4 bangers that are bad. I can't believe they still put the 3.3L on Caravans, my '95 voyager had it. It was a good engine for its time but.. in 2008?
In my honest opinion, GM's engines are all superior to what Chrysler has. This isn't a down Chrysler but more of an acknowledgment of how far GM has come in the last 5 years with regards to powertrain development.

As for the V8s, I would think that GM would find a creative way to retain the "HEMI" designation in some sort of future engine offering. The one thing that Chrysler has been good at doing was creating "moniker designations" for engines in the past. HEMI and Magnum V8 were two of them. GM could learn something here and would perhaps be best to retain the HEMI name/engine somehow in the future.

As for the V6 and I4 comments, I agree. Most of these engines are bad and the victims of incredible cost cutting.

The GEMA I4 that was co-developed with Mitsubishi and Hyundai is an inferior engine. While the engine was jointly developed, Chrysler's version cut corners in engine mapping, intake, etc that Hyundai and Mitsubishi splurged on.

As for the V6, I'm a fan of the 3.5L (and its "new", larger 4.0L brother), however, the engine is OLD and needs to be dropped. What's more, these OHC engines are really derivatives of an even older OHV design that's still in production (the 3.3L and "new" 3.8L utilize the same architecture). It would be best for them to be phased out as quickly as possible in favor of GM's 3.6L V6 and maybe even GM's 2.8L.

None of this is to say that GM doesn't deserve criticism for some of their own past engine programs or how long they've kept some of their own architectures around. The 3.8L V6 is an icon and a legend in the enthusiast world, but it has stayed around past its prime. The 3.9L & 3.5L VVT V6 (and non-VVT variants) share a great deal with the even older 2.8, 3.1, and 3.4L V6s from years before and are still in production at some level. And more examples could be offered.

However, I wonder if GM could try and salvage the DOHC Chrysler 4.7L V8? We all know that the Northstar's replacement has been put on hold indefinitely. The current 4.6L V8 probably won't see anymore updates or advances beyond their current interation. Could GM possibly pinch the engine or some features to help Caddy? Just a thought, though if member serves it doesn't match the Northstar's smoothness or HP rating...

Still, at least GM is making inroads and steamlining their engine architectures to derive better efficiencies. This is something that could benefit Chrysler in the future.
 

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In my honest opinion, GM's engines are all superior to what Chrysler has. This isn't a down Chrysler but more of an acknowledgment of how far GM has come in the last 5 years with regards to powertrain development.

As for the V8s, I would think that GM would find a creative way to retain the "HEMI" designation in some sort of future engine offering. The one thing that Chrysler has been good at doing was creating "moniker designations" for engines in the past. HEMI and Magnum V8 were two of them. GM could learn something here and would perhaps be best to retain the HEMI name/engine somehow in the future.

As for the V6 and I4 comments, I agree. Most of these engines are bad and the victims of incredible cost cutting.

The GEMA I4 that was co-developed with Mitsubishi and Hyundai is an inferior engine. While the engine was jointly developed, Chrysler's version cut corners in engine mapping, intake, etc that Hyundai and Mitsubishi splurged on.

As for the V6, I'm a fan of the 3.5L (and its "new", larger 4.0L brother), however, the engine is OLD and needs to be dropped. What's more, these OHC engines are really derivatives of an even older OHV design that's still in production (the 3.3L and "new" 3.8L utilize the same architecture). It would be best for them to be phased out as quickly as possible in favor of GM's 3.6L V6 and maybe even GM's 2.8L.

None of this is to say that GM doesn't deserve criticism for some of their own past engine programs or how long they've kept some of their own architectures around. The 3.8L V6 is an icon and a legend in the enthusiast world, but it has stayed around past its prime. The 3.9L & 3.5L VVT V6 (and non-VVT variants) share a great deal with the even older 2.8, 3.1, and 3.4L V6s from years before and are still in production at some level. And more examples could be offered.

However, I wonder if GM could try and salvage the DOHC Chrysler 4.7L V8? We all know that the Northstar's replacement has been put on hold indefinitely. The current 4.6L V8 probably won't see anymore updates or advances beyond their current interation. Could GM possibly pinch the engine or some features to help Caddy? Just a thought, though if member serves it doesn't match the Northstar's smoothness or HP rating...

Still, at least GM is making inroads and steamlining their engine architectures to derive better efficiencies. This is something that could benefit Chrysler in the future.
Good god that was a well thought out and reasonable arguement. The new Chrysler 4.7L is rated for 310 HP and around 330 lb-ft torque. I know that the previous 4.7L was pretty smooth (my father in law had it in a dak). Don't know about the current one.

I guess I think the VCT puts the Hemi above the GM V8s, but I haven't driven or been in a vehicle with one of the GM V8s in it so I can't really say for sure.
 

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Oh please, they need to stop it with the talks. This isn't going to work out.
:clap: I've said this since..what...1997? The last time Chrysler "merged" with another automaker.

Funny. I thought it was to help them "retool" for the new fuel economy standards.

Mark
They can keep telling Congress that, but anyone with half of a brain cell knows that won't be what they spend that money on.

Yea lets give more money to gm sure that will make them a better company. They had money all of this time and they lost it all. Sold most of their assests and now they are broke. What do you think that giving them more money will make them better and different company. First thing that needs to change is leadership and then gm needs to change the way it is doign business. all of these brands are not the way to do business. I say do not give a penny to gm until leadership changes and gm changes the way it is doing business untill then it will be same old crapy gm.
You forgot to put the little [sarchastic] box in front of that statement. However, it's comments are spot on. GM had money, spent it like it would never be gone, & now it's gone. So, they want to steal $11B from Chrysler & get the government to hand out a few billion more dollars. Does anyone else see that this is a vicious cycle that GM won't (by choice) get themselves out of?
 

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I think GM is nuts to do this.

Cerberus (in part lead by DAN QUAYLE - not kidding, I read this on DETNEWS.com) is dying to get rid of Chrysler. Why help them out? Let Chrysler go Chapter 11 and GM can bid on the parts its wants during the sell off. Its not like GM is going to keep Chrysler intact anyway.

I've owned Chryslers and wish them no harm, but they're an albatross.
 
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