GM Inside News Forum banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
488 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I noticed this in the GM press release last week ("GM to Bolster Liquidity by $15 Billion through 2009"):

A major part of the reductions is related to the delay of the next generation large pickup and SUV program, as well as V-8 engine development and associated capacity.
Could this mean that the next generation of the LS-series V8s (DI, VVT, etc.) that are supposed to be released in a couple years are at risk? Anyone have any info?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
373 Posts
I hope not, they have spent enough money to where they might go ahead and use the engines. It would be a shame and a waste of money not to use them. Along with the new technology might come better fuel economy for the vette, hopefully next gen camaro, and maybe rwd impala/ G8 and trucks thus helping the overall avg fuel economy. Along with the new 1.4L turbo and hopefully a few diesel engines they might still be ok.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,963 Posts
Gen V's are still on track from what I understand. Its not an all new design, but any advancements with the addition of direct injection will start to show up soon. Very smal investment overall, compared to the Ultra engine series of OHC replacements for the Northstar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,265 Posts
In terms of performance, power, torque and reliability the engine really doesnt need any more advancement. The only advancement would be the addition of a gas, ethanol, direct injection, DOD and couple of other small improvements. All these changes should be very expensive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,267 Posts
H9onestly what improvements are there needed for the LS engines? THey are already powerful enough, and fuel economy gains for DI is negligible at best...so unless they are shooting for 500hp from a 6.2, what's the point of adding DI?

I guess they can make the engine lighter than it already is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
913 Posts
Maybe they could develop some small displacement gen V engine.Like the one from GMC concept with 4.9 l and DI..and put turbochargers on it :yup:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,963 Posts
Exactly, they can make smaller displacemen engins but keep the power. And by going smaller, we could see a bigger increase in fuel economy.
And yes...you could see a 500hp 6.2 liter V8 engine without any turbs or superchargers.
That makes Big Al happy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,904 Posts
Just about everyone feels that that part of the announcement was referring to the cancellation of the "Ultra V8"... The Cadillac Northstar replacement.

The LSx series of motors will live on, grow and prosper... The high end 32V V8 is dead. And while this make most V8 Buyers (and big Al) happy... Post this news on any Cadillac forum and they will call you a troll.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
913 Posts
Just about everyone feels that that part of the announcement was referring to the cancellation of the "Ultra V8"... The Cadillac Northstar replacement.

The LSx series of motors will live on, grow and prosper... The high end 32V V8 is dead. And while this make most V8 Buyers (and big Al) happy... Post this news on any Cadillac forum and they will call you a troll.
Yes it is sad that ultra v8 was cancelled (especially because according to rumors it was excellent engine..but we will never know). But since genV will be cheaper to develop and produce than ultra v8 would be (i think) and ultra v8 would be more of just cadillac engine (which is what cadillac actually need) where gen V will be Chevy (for cars and trucks ), pontiac and who knows where else GM decide to put that engine.
Who knows maybe Cadillac will get some special version of that engine (3 valve DI or something similar)...if GM will have money to invest in special version just for cadillac ...but i doubt it.:(..and latest rumors are no v8 for future cadillac sedans (V series not included)..so if someone wants v8 from GM they'll have to buy chevy, pontiac etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,170 Posts
Yes it is sad that ultra v8 was cancelled (especially because according to rumors it was excellent engine..but we will never know). But since genV will be cheaper to develop and produce than ultra v8 would be (i think) and ultra v8 would be more of just cadillac engine (which is what cadillac actually need) where gen V will be Chevy (for cars and trucks ), pontiac and who knows where else GM decide to put that engine.
Who knows maybe Cadillac will get some special version of that engine (3 valve DI or somethiong similar)...if GM will have money to invest in special version just for cadillac ...but i doubt it.:(
Bottom line, people who spend 50K on a car are still price conscience to gas. BMW already sold a trivial amount of 550s compared to the V6 counterparts, so I think its reasonable to move towards more fuel efficient DI turbo V6s as the top engine for the non-V car t these prices. In other words - with gas at $5, I think the need for a 5.5 sec 0-60 vs 6.5 sec is not worth the hit in the pocketbook - and those that really want performance can get a V.

Remember, back in the day you needed a V8 to get pushed into the seat, not anymore. A well designed V6 turbo can be a wicked fast ride every bit as refined.

All that said, no 32V V8 means no legitimate 7/S competitor until e-flex is on a large car platform. The ICE engine design means nothing (OHC vs turbo vs OHV) as long as its quiet if electric motors are actually driving the wheels.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,904 Posts
All that said, no 32V V8 means no legitimate 7/S competitor until e-flex is on a large car platform. The ICE engine design means nothing (OHC vs turbo vs OHV) as long as its quiet if electric motors are actually driving the wheels.
Ya, it also means that anytime any magazine does a comparison piece the Caddy in the line up will enter the ring with one hand tied behind its back...

No 32V V8 not only means no legitimate 7/S/LS competitor... It means that we are barely competing in the 5/E/GS space... (all of which have 32V V8 options)

Sadly our target is now highend of the 3/C/IS market...
(and if you count the M3 as a 3... all of these have 32V V8s as options too..)

We are now going the way of Acura... "The Motor Nazi..."
"No 32V V8 for You"

There has been losts of debate if a luxury buy will ever accept a push rod motor as an "acceptable" power plant... As someone who buys Cadillacs... I flip/flop back and forth... The LSx engines are world class... I would prefer a 32V... I drive, own, and love a GM 32V... Going to a push rod will be a step backward IMO... but if forced I will accept it.

But I'm a GM loyalist...
I worry how many "non loyalists" will accept this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
913 Posts
And how do you feel about V6 TT with around 430 hp (those are the rumors)? I think that engine would be very good choice for non V models. Yes dohc v8 with some HP would be better but since there won't be (at least for now)
But all this is in future. Isn't gen v suppose to come with c7 corvette somewhere in 2012?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,963 Posts
Bottom line, people who spend 50K on a car are still price conscience to gas. BMW already sold a trivial amount of 550s compared to the V6 counterparts, so I think its reasonable to move towards more fuel efficient DI turbo V6s as the top engine for the non-V car t these prices. In other words - with gas at $5, I think the need for a 5.5 sec 0-60 vs 6.5 sec is not worth the hit in the pocketbook - and those that really want performance can get a V.

Remember, back in the day you needed a V8 to get pushed into the seat, not anymore. A well designed V6 turbo can be a wicked fast ride every bit as refined.

All that said, no 32V V8 means no legitimate 7/S competitor until e-flex is on a large car platform. The ICE engine design means nothing (OHC vs turbo vs OHV) as long as its quiet if electric motors are actually driving the wheels.

GM has a V8, and if they were smart, they would use the American V8 Gen V to go head to head with the fancy OHC engines with every advancement in technology. VVT, DI, AFM, all there to produce a powerful V8 while maintaing best in class fuel econ.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,904 Posts
And how do you feel about V6 TT with around 430 hp (those are the rumors)? I think that engine would be very good choice for non V models. Yes dohc v8 with some HP would be better but since there won't be (at least for now)
But all this is in future. Isn't gen v suppose to come with c7 corvette somewhere in 2012?

Not a big fan of Turbo motors... I have been and always will be a fan of naturally asperated Good 'ol American V8's

Given the choice between a 430HP Twin Turbo 6 and a 430HP 6.2L LS3..
I'd pick the LS3 every time.

You forget Lutz's quote "Rich people don't care about gas prices"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,170 Posts
Not a big fan of Turbo motors... I have been and always will be a fan of naturally asperated Good 'ol American V8's

Given the choice between a 430HP Twin Turbo 6 and a 430HP 6.2L LS3..
I'd pick the LS3 every time.

You forget Lutz's quote "Rich people don't care about gas prices"
Yeah, but even the vast majority of 5 series buyers aren't rich, by any stretch of the word.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,170 Posts
Ya, it also means that anytime any magazine does a comparison piece the Caddy in the line up will enter the ring with one hand tied behind its back...

No 32V V8 not only means no legitimate 7/S/LS competitor... It means that we are barely competing in the 5/E/GS space... (all of which have 32V V8 options)

Sadly our target is now highend of the 3/C/IS market...
(and if you count the M3 as a 3... all of these have 32V V8s as options too..)

We are now going the way of Acura... "The Motor Nazi..."
"No 32V V8 for You"

There has been losts of debate if a luxury buy will ever accept a push rod motor as an "acceptable" power plant... As someone who buys Cadillacs... I flip/flop back and forth... The LSx engines are world class... I would prefer a 32V... I drive, own, and love a GM 32V... Going to a push rod will be a step backward IMO... but if forced I will accept it.

But I'm a GM loyalist...
I worry how many "non loyalists" will accept this.
They'll accept it because all this will be irrelevant within 5 years. E flex is on the way for a lot more than the VOLT.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,094 Posts
Yeah, but even the vast majority of 5 series buyers aren't rich, by any stretch of the word.
So true..... in South Florida the majority of 5's and their Asian counterparts are all lease cars........the good resale/ high residual value keeps BMW,Audi, and MBZ sales volume up. You can definitely lease more dollar in those brands, but more value is another story.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,267 Posts
Bottom line, people who spend 50K on a car are still price conscience to gas. BMW already sold a trivial amount of 550s compared to the V6 counterparts, so I think its reasonable to move towards more fuel efficient DI turbo V6s as the top engine for the non-V car t these prices. In other words - with gas at $5, I think the need for a 5.5 sec 0-60 vs 6.5 sec is not worth the hit in the pocketbook - and those that really want performance can get a V.
The 535 gets the same performance and better gas mileage compared to the 550i. And it doesn't help matters that the 550i has a $60K starting price. And another thing to note is that the G8 V6 doesn't get much better fuel economy compared to the V8 version. Unless its perception that a V8 will guzzle gas more than a V6, or the fuel economy gains is minimal compared to using a V8, why even bother offering a turbocharged 6 instead of a V8?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
14,201 Posts
The Gen V smallblock is not dead, regardless of what you read. It's possible that GM is looking at some different (smaller) displacements, but it's still alive and kicking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,080 Posts
I'd personally love to see DI LS motor making right at 280-300 hp and comparable torque. That's all the power I need, but having the combination of that signature v8 gurgle coming out the exhaust AND the good fuel mileage, is the sole reason I'd choose it over a comparably powered v6.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top