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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
F1 has announced that its next generation of engines, set to hit the track in 2025, will be powered by a 100 percent sustainable fuel that F1 later envisions becoming available for mainstream use. The power units created under the new regulations coming in 2025 will use a 100 percent sustainable fuel which F1 says will be laboratory created using elements from a variety of potential sources.

Burning sustainable fuels does still release carbon dioxide as a byproduct, but unlike a gasoline engine, there is no net carbon dioxide emitted.
"We're not producing any CO2 that is not already in the atmosphere at the moment; we're taking it out of the atmosphere, we're using it, and we're putting it back in the atmosphere."

F1 says it is currently in talks with fuel companies about creating enough fuel for the series, as well as later scaling up production for widespread public use. F1 wants to lead the way toward making internal-combustion engines sustainable.

Full article here: Formula 1 Is Creating a 100% Sustainable Fuel to Keep Internal Combustion Alive
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I wasn't so much thinking of it from the racing point of view, but rather from the consumer point of view. A lot of questions not answered but.....

-Can it be formulated where it can work on existing gasoline powered vehicles? (they seem to think so)

-Can existing gas stations be retrofitted easily to have this in their tanks/pumps?

-If a large part of the move to EV's is about saving the environment/planet, might this be a BETTER solutions? Should we not throw so much govt money at promoting EV's and maybe take a long/hard look at this?

-Of course from the environmental point of view..it comes down to the environmental impact of battery composition (mining) vs transport of a liquid fuel.
 

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I wasn't so much thinking of it from the racing point of view, but rather from the consumer point of view. A lot of questions not answered but.....

-Can it be formulated where it can work on existing gasoline powered vehicles? (they seem to think so)

-Can existing gas stations be retrofitted easily to have this in their tanks/pumps?

-If a large part of the move to EV's is about saving the environment/planet, might this be a BETTER solutions? Should we not throw so much govt money at promoting EV's and maybe take a long/hard look at this?

-Of course from the environmental point of view..it comes down to the environmental impact of battery composition (mining) vs transport of a liquid fuel.
The German military relied on synthetic gasoline during World War II.
South Africa relied on synthetic gasoline during Apartheid.
Gasoline engines have been modified to burn natural gas.
Gasoline engines have been modified to burn alcohol.
Gasoline engines have been modified to burn hydrogen.

Do the math.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The German military relied on synthetic gasoline during World War II.
South Africa relied on synthetic gasoline during Apartheid.
Gasoline engines have been modified to burn natural gas.
Gasoline engines have been modified to burn alcohol.
Gasoline engines have been modified to burn hydrogen.

Do the math.
Do the math? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I could take your 'do the math' comment as Synthetic fuels have been viable in the past, and with modern technology they will work even better.

I could also take it as this has been tried before and failed, so it is likely to fail again.

So rather than just posting some comments that can be taken either way and throwing in a 'do the math', care to tell us just what side of this issue you are on?
 

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I've been following this. I like the concept, but, just like synthetic oil, cost is an issue. So far what I've seen is that they've not been able to get the manufacturing costs down to reasonable levels. Wouldn't surprise me if high end sports car makes, like Porsche, do remain ICE and we'll have $10 a gallon synthetic gas for them. Good for them but not practical for us common folk.

Still a nice idea - lets see if they can work down the costs like they are with batteries. The problem is, it seems like most of the big manufacturers are going all in on EV, which means none will be investing in synthetic gas, nor will they likely be enthusiastic about it after they've made the commitment to dump a ton of money into EV.
 

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I've been following this. I like the concept, but, just like synthetic oil, cost is an issue. So far what I've seen is that they've not been able to get the manufacturing costs down to reasonable levels. Wouldn't surprise me if high end sports car makes, like Porsche, do remain ICE and we'll have $10 a gallon synthetic gas for them. Good for them but not practical for us common folk.
I don't expect fossil fuels to completely go away. Ever (or, at least my lifetime). For high-end sports cars etc., that will continue to be an option. So I don't know that a high-cost synthetic makes sense for that segment except for the environmental cachet. And the actual environmental impact would be very small if it's only catering to a small niche.

And then there's the cost of the engines. If it really is a net zero emissions as claimed with carbon capture etc., that might add costs too.

Regardless, always good to look at all possible options. Who knows what could happen with a couple of breakthroughs.
 

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I don't expect fossil fuels to completely go away. Ever (or, at least my lifetime). For high-end sports cars etc., that will continue to be an option. So I don't know that a high-cost synthetic makes sense for that segment except for the environmental cachet. And the actual environmental impact would be very small if it's only catering to a small niche.

And then there's the cost of the engines. If it really is a net zero emissions as claimed with carbon capture etc., that might add costs too.

Regardless, always good to look at all possible options. Who knows what could happen with a couple of breakthroughs.
I'd be interested to see how it would be distributed. A gas station would have to give up normal "fossil" gas - I huge risk (depending on the price). Maybe a place like Whole Foods could put in gas stations - certainly someone willing to pay $10 a pint for organic strawberries will pay $10 a gallon for "organic" gas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I'd be interested to see how it would be distributed. A gas station would have to give up normal "fossil" gas - I huge risk (depending on the price). Maybe a place like Whole Foods could put in gas stations - certainly someone willing to pay $10 a pint for organic strawberries will pay $10 a gallon for "organic" gas.
Or they could just start by having one of their pumps with the 'new' fuel while other pumps offer traditional fuel.

its how a lot of stations deal with Ethanol free. Years ago few stations had ethanol free. Now they do......how? they have one pump/storage tank installed for the new fuel.
 

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Or they could just start by having one of their pumps with the 'new' fuel while other pumps offer traditional fuel.

its how a lot of stations deal with Ethanol free. Years ago few stations had ethanol free. Now they do......how? they have one pump/storage tank installed for the new fuel.
The reason I was thinking that will be more difficult as this gas will have to be sold in affluent areas, which tend to be built up and gas stations will not typically have a lot of extra area for an additional pump or tank
 

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Or they could just start by having one of their pumps with the 'new' fuel while other pumps offer traditional fuel.

its how a lot of stations deal with Ethanol free. Years ago few stations had ethanol free. Now they do......how? they have one pump/storage tank installed for the new fuel.
Regular, Mid-Grade, Premium, Diesel, Pure Gas, E-85, Kerosene...............

All stations have multiple "tanks" the thought that they don't have room to add one more or convert one of the existing, seems unlikely.

And who knows where gas prices (or EV-recharge rates) will go...........
 
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The German military relied on synthetic gasoline during World War II.
South Africa relied on synthetic gasoline during Apartheid.
Gasoline engines have been modified to burn natural gas.
Gasoline engines have been modified to burn alcohol.
Gasoline engines have been modified to burn hydrogen.

Do the math.
You neglected to mention any numbers, so there's no math to do.

Anyways....

Yes, synthetic fuels have successfully been used in regular internal combustion engines (with minor modifications) in many places and times. But these were always because they were forced into it by a lack of oil (and hence, gasoline). Synthetics CAN be used, but they can't compete well on price. Formula One, and any other racing body, has little interest in the cost of fuel, so this just isn't that likely to make it to the public sector just because racers use it. Formula One is just engaging in "political posturing". We've already GONE that route before (ethanol) and found it not to be very competitive. The only thing that will make synthetic fuels viable in the marketplace, would be if gasoline costs and/or supplies become (and stay) too difficult to bear.
 

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You neglected to mention any numbers, so there's no math to do.

Anyways....

Yes, synthetic fuels have successfully been used in regular internal combustion engines (with minor modifications) in many places and times. But these were always because they were forced into it by a lack of oil (and hence, gasoline). Synthetics CAN be used, but they can't compete well on price. Formula One, and any other racing body, has little interest in the cost of fuel, so this just isn't that likely to make it to the public sector just because racers use it. Formula One is just engaging in "political posturing". We've already GONE that route before (ethanol) and found it not to be very competitive. The only thing that will make synthetic fuels viable in the marketplace, would be if gasoline costs and/or supplies become (and stay) too difficult to bear.
Yes - this sounds like a solution for rich people and their related toys, not for the masses.
 

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I don't expect fossil fuels to completely go away. Ever (or, at least my lifetime). For high-end sports cars etc., that will continue to be an option. So I don't know that a high-cost synthetic makes sense for that segment except for the environmental cachet. And the actual environmental impact would be very small if it's only catering to a small niche.

And then there's the cost of the engines. If it really is a net zero emissions as claimed with carbon capture etc., that might add costs too.

Regardless, always good to look at all possible options. Who knows what could happen with a couple of breakthroughs.
will say remember that the EV push is from GOVERNMENT regulations on "ICE" vehicles and I would not be surprised if "dino" gas is regulated / taxed higher and higher as they WANT the EV transition to happen and FEW manufacturers WANT to build ICE vehicles over EV as the regulations on ICE
ASSUMING this new "ECOgas" is in favour then maybe lower on vehicle CAFE standards and less / no "carbon like" taxes on the fuel will make it "cost comparable" to DINO-fuel
 
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