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VW has up to six months inventory on ID4, they can’t shift the damned things. So whatever is wrong, this could be a good cautionary tale of other manufacturers planning on propping up their own “EV lemonade stand”.

I think that VW management is full of it and they don’t really know what buyers want, they push out models they want to do and then try to make the interest match….

Tesla has literally taken on the world with two compact vehicles and left the German premium brands gasping as buyers flock to them. I don’t know what the future is for VW Group, BMW and Mercedes Benz but it’s becoming clear that Tesla is hacking into their buyers more than other brands…..
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
Honda did.

But, my point is, the success of the Prius led GM and the rest of the industry to try to emulate their approach. But the tech they were using was more expensive than the Prius hybrid tech and to me, and apparently the market, a $40k Prius equivalent doesn't light the masses on fire.

Ya got a model name?

Which why I included the word "economical" in my question.....
 

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Good points BlackGTP. What saddens me about the premature demise of GM's 2-Mode Hybrid and Voltec programs is that they didn't fail because of technical issues or obsolescence, but to inept marketing. 2-Mode and Voltec represented superior engineering compared to the Ford and Toyota power-split hybrid powertrains, but GM marketing dweebs doomed both almost from the start.
GM has a propensity to lead the market, overdelivering but then letting it’s products crumble in the market.

The 2-mode hybrid Silverado was sliced and diced by F150 Ecoboost V6 that gave similar highway mileage. It seems that the 23 mpg city mode got completely lost in translation…

Volt was a tragedy because that Tech needed to be attached to a larger vehicle, preferably a Utility that could carry the price and show the efficiency improvements over say a compact car where competitors ICE offering gave pretty good economy.

Today, Ford has the $20k Maverick hybrid that really puts it to the competition on a couple of fronts…a PHEV has to be on the way….
 

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VW has up to six months inventory on ID4, they can’t shift the damned things. So whatever is wrong, this could be a good cautionary tale of other manufacturers planning on propping up their own “EV lemonade stand”.

I think that VW management is full of it and they don’t really know what buyers want, they push out models they want to do and then try to make the interest match….

Tesla has literally taken on the world with two compact vehicles and left the German premium brands gasping as buyers flock to them. I don’t know what the future is for VW Group, BMW and Mercedes Benz but it’s becoming clear that Tesla is hacking into their buyers more than other brands…..
I think GM might have the better, traditional approach with launching new tech - going with glitzy, high-end vehicles. That is where desire for tech is created and then trickle it down to the masses. Using my perfect hindsight, perhaps mainstream family cars are not where to start. I don't know if there is a strong enough connection in the USA between VW and Porshe/Audi and the other brands for people not interested in cars to know they are all the same company and get a halo effect from Porsche/Audi.

Plus, look at the splash the Hummer has made - it garnered huge attention for GM, while Porsche and Audi certainly have put out credible BEV's, I don't know that they've made a big splash outside of their tried and true circles. To me, the Audi and Porshe BEV's are "more of the same" and not particularly splashy.

I feel like that excitement has to be built in the high end by all makes to get the masses to take interest and understand that the shortcomings of BEV's are starting to be overcome with reduced charging times, etc..
 

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I think GM might have the better, traditional approach with launching new tech - going with glitzy, high-end vehicles. That is where desire for tech is created and then trickle it down to the masses. Using my perfect hindsight, perhaps mainstream family cars are not where to start. I don't know if there is a strong enough connection in the USA between VW and Porshe/Audi and the other brands for people not interested in cars to know they are all the same company and get a halo effect from Porsche/Audi.

Plus, look at the splash the Hummer has made - it garnered huge attention for GM, while Porsche and Audi certainly have put out credible BEV's, I don't know that they've made a big splash outside of their tried and true circles. To me, the Audi and Porshe BEV's are "more of the same" and not particularly splashy.

I feel like that excitement has to be built in the high end by all makes to get the masses to take interest and understand that the shortcomings of BEV's are starting to be overcome with reduced charging times, etc..
I agree with much of what you say and electrification is proceeding in the US at two levels, one where Ford and GM are playing and the other where Tesla is dominating In compact car/utility sales. Pretty much Europe’s bread and butter sales and Tesla will wound them deeply.

Not a sleight against GM, I think both GM and Ford are approaching electrification the right way by focusing on their strength, larger vehicles - that’s where the profits and the customers to generate profits are. They’ll both do well in those upper segments and domestic luxury like Cadillac.

I don’t see that reflecting in vehicles like ID4 which clearly is a much harder sell, that’s why I’m thinking those other brands looking to snag buyers with compact/mid size BEVs better be wary as those compact buyers are eyeing Tesla over VW Group, BMW and MB offerings.
 

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I agree with much of what you say and electrification is proceeding in the US at two levels, one where Ford and GM are playing and the other where Tesla is dominating In compact car/utility sales. Pretty much Europe’s bread and butter sales and Tesla will wound them deeply.

Not a sleight against GM, I think both GM and Ford are approaching electrification the right way by focusing on their strength, larger vehicles - that’s where the profits and the customers to generate profits are. They’ll both do well in those upper segments and domestic luxury like Cadillac.

I don’t see that reflecting in vehicles like ID4 which clearly is a much harder sell, that’s why I’m thinking those other brands looking to snag buyers with compact/mid size BEVs better be wary as those compact buyers are eyeing Tesla over VW Group, BMW and MB offerings.
I think the traditional family car buyer isn't quite yet ready for BEV, I think there is still work to be done to prove to that buyer that electrics are for them. But once all the luxury makes go big time into electrics and same with high end trucks it'll prove to the conservative buyers that it's now time to buy one.

I think one of three things will happen with that buyer:

1) The early adaptors will do their magic and convince them to switch
2) The good 'ol government will force it.
3) Gas cost will price everyone out of the ICE market (perhaps at #2's doing)
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
And that highlights my point - you don't know what vehicle I'm talking about as it was/is a dud in the market.

Honda Insight, launched in 1999. They've kept with it but largely a failure in comparison to the Prius. This link has sales stats 11 Honda Insight Statistics You Should Know (Facts & Numbers) (motorandwheels.com)

OK, cool-cool, I just wanted to make sure I knew what you were talking about, I didn't want to assume anything.....

The first-Gen was something else, the second-Gen was an honest attempt, but it never had the economy numbers of the Prius, so a "green" can that isn't efficient is just another car, no?

Here is the 2022 version of that discontinued car by the way....

Wheel Automotive parking light Tire Car Vehicle
 
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I think the traditional family car buyer isn't quite yet ready for BEV, I think there is still work to be done to prove to that buyer that electrics are for them. But once all the luxury makes go big time into electrics and same with high end trucks it'll prove to the conservative buyers that it's now time to buy one.

I think one of three things will happen with that buyer:

1) The early adaptors will do their magic and convince them to switch
2) The good 'ol government will force it.
3) Gas cost will price everyone out of the ICE market (perhaps at #2's doing)
We’re talking about buyers of commodity vehicles where price is extremely important. Companies like BYD and other Chinese brands are probably going to be the new Koreans offering good value whilst Koreans and Japanese will battle out for the scraps…..America is very diverse and ICE might hang on longer thanks to Hybrids and PHEVs.

Unless Europe introduces tough import restrictions, the Chinese look set to take a huge percentage of European market, while Euro brands struggle for the scraps. If restrictions go up then the price of EVs will be much higher there to protect local brands, interesting times ahead.
 

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OK, cool-cool, I just wanted to make sure I knew what you were talking about, I didn't want to assume anything.....

The first-Gen was something else, the second-Gen was an honest attempt, but it never had the economy numbers of the Prius, so a "green" can that isn't efficient is just another car, no?

Here is the 2022 version of that discontinued car by the way....

View attachment 66982
OK, cool-cool, I just wanted to make sure I knew what you were talking about, I didn't want to assume anything.....

The first-Gen was something else, the second-Gen was an honest attempt, but it never had the economy numbers of the Prius, so a "green" can that isn't efficient is just another car, no?

Here is the 2022 version of that discontinued car by the way....

View attachment 66982
Yeah, Honda never quite got their Prius competitor dialed in right, but to your point, the tech went mainstream.
 

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Back to Ford's Profits.

They are going to Grow also. The Price Increase, F Series Invoiced after May 15th, are just starting to roll onto Dealers Lots. And the Price Increase is signifigant. $3500 CDN$$m while Demand is steady.
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
Is Honda now a disaster story?
For whatever reason, they are having a REAL hard time with supply-chain, the older I get the less impressed I am with Japanese companies......

Back to Ford's Profits.

They are going to Grow also. The Price Increase, F Series Invoiced after May 15th, are just starting to roll onto Dealers' Lots. And the Price Increase is significant. $3500 CDN$$m while Demand is steady.
There is a thought that demand is actually severely declining, but capacity is off so much, and inventory is so short, that it's not really noticeable... Basically, what I've said about new and used car prices, gets right back down to Supply & Demand.

Price (cost) increases are still going on, we had almost 1/2 of our suppliers push out price increases for July, other one or two months before or after, pairing back free freight, increasing MOQ, to think inflation is over, is a bit optimistic. (but it will either get better or 'break')
 

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I certainly hope the reserve eases up onmore rate hikes until we see what effect they have had. Don’t want to crash the economy, just ease back on the reins a bit to restore balance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
I certainly hope the reserve eases up onmore rate hikes until we see what effect they have had. Don’t want to crash the economy, just ease back on the reins a bit to restore balance.
Either the Fed does it, or we (risk) having runaway inflation; crashing the economy will hurt a lot of people, runaway inflation will hurt everybody...
 
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Either the Fed does it, or we (risk) having runaway inflation; crashing the economy will hurt a lot of people, runaway inflation will hurt everybody...
The concern is that they have been asleep at the switch and are now trying to make up for being slow to act. Interest rates were never meant to stay super low - that’s out of balance.

Fortunately, it’s far from runaway inflation and mostly fuelled corporations cashing in and making up for pandemic losses. When they’re done, prices will drop and things will go back to normal, we’re seeing it with gas prices coming back - diesel price is important as it touches most Deliveries and transport.
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
The concern is that they have been asleep at the switch and are now trying to make up for being slow to act. Interest rates were never meant to stay super low - that’s out of balance.

Fortunately, it’s far from runaway inflation and mostly fueled corporations cashing in and making up for pandemic losses. When they’re done, prices will drop and things will go back to normal, we’re seeing it with gas prices coming back - diesel price is important as it touches most Deliveries and transport.
I've been saying for months that there was speculation in oil/gas, just because that goes down, doesn't fix the issue/issues, and after months and months of increases, inflation going down to "only 4 or 5 percent is still up, on the elevated numbers..... Lower gas prices, just means people have more money to buy/spend more on other things, that's going to push or keep prices up or worse, continuing to go up.....
 

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I've been saying for months that there was speculation in oil/gas, just because that goes down, doesn't fix the issue/issues, and after months and months of increases, inflation going down to "only 4 or 5 percent is still up, on the elevated numbers..... Lower gas prices, just means people have more money to buy/spend more on other things, that's going to push or keep prices up or worse, continuing to go up.....
I don’t think so, prices are levelling off, a slowing in housing and property is exactly what’s needed but not a crash. The optics of this gets tricky for the very reasons you explained, the inflation rate is a lagging indicator that happens after everything else. Fingers crossed for a soft landing - something that’s in everyone’s interest even if the nay sayers don’t see it yet.

The easing of gas prices has an intersting side effect, its a key element in making consumers feel better about the situation, house prices flattening or falling slightly is another…..all counterbalanced by higher interest prices.

I wonder how things will look by November- December.
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
I don’t think so, prices are levelling off, a slowing in housing and property is exactly what’s needed but not a crash. The optics of this gets tricky for the very reasons you explained, the inflation rate is a lagging indicator that happens after everything else. Fingers crossed for a soft landing - something that’s in everyone’s interest even if the nay sayers don’t see it yet.

The easing of gas prices has an interesting side effect, it's a key element in making consumers feel better about the situation, house prices flattening or falling slightly is another…..all counterbalanced by higher interest prices.

I wonder how things will look by November- December.
Costs were rising a lot LAST YEAR, we were told to ignore it, it was "transitory"...... Last year we had price increases in January and September, then did another one this year in April, costs kept going up, none of that was due to the recent gas price increases....

Not sure if I shared this already, but gas prices are falling, because people are using less of it; they can't afford the gas, or the spending that takes place at the places they normally drive to.

Font Plot Parallel Rectangle Slope


Wages and housing are very sticky............ most bosses don't take back raises, just because inflation slowed down, rents are typically 12 month or longer terms, and if you just paid $735,000 for that house, just like mine (that I paid $329K for) congratulations, you own it, the seller already cashed your check you aren't getting any of your money back, and god help you, if you got a ARM.....
 
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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
Google "Credit Card Delinquency" it's not "bad" yet, but it is certainly going in the wrong direction (you like trends right?) and considering the number of people that live "pay-check-to-paycheck" increasing credit card balances, with increasing interest rates...

I heard it described like this; 30% of the population is doing 'OK' it's just the other 70% that wasn't before all this started...
 
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