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This has me thinking.......

If a conservative, everyday "practical" EV has trouble finding buyers, but not a Tesla; has the industry been fooled into thinking there is more demand for "practical" EV's than there really is?
A Fad. A Statis Symbol, A Ticket to a Higher Society.

Has alot more to do with the trend than Practical Transportation IMO.

Nothing against Americans, however I live on a Border Town, it is a Main Access for Tourism Travel to Canada. I have watched for many years with amazement, American Travellers coming into Canada in Motorhomes towing Boats to fish our Lakes. There are many convos of 3-5 Identical Motorhomes towing Identical Boats, racing to be first in line. Sometimes there is 1 that has a 2' longer boat (same brand) with 50 extra HP Motor on the back. Why?
 

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This has me thinking.......

If a conservative, everyday "practical" EV has trouble finding buyers, but not a Tesla; has the industry been fooled into thinking there is more demand for "practical" EV's than there really is?3
But that practical EV isn't having trouble finding buyers. VW is going to crank up ID4 production. Again, that inventory number has asterisks attached

Maybe that's why Ford seems to be waffling on the Escape EV.
Are they? At this moment affordable EVs are not profitable enough for most automakers. The Explorer EV, which is coming next year, will be plenty practical but will be at a price point that's comfortable for Ford. The base ID4 MSRP is $4k below the Mach-E. An Escape EV would need to be more like $6k+ cheaper than the Mach-E, which is not going to happen for Ford in today's environment. I think we'll see the cheap EVs in 2025 and beyond as cheaper batteries become a reality.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
But that practical EV isn't having trouble finding buyers. VW is going to crank up ID4 production. Again, that inventory number has asterisks attached



Are they? At this moment affordable EVs are not profitable enough for most automakers. The Explorer EV, which is coming next year, will be plenty practical but will be at a price point that's comfortable for Ford. The base ID4 MSRP is $4k below the Mach-E. An Escape EV would need to be more like $6k+ cheaper than the Mach-E, which is not going to happen for Ford in today's environment. I think we'll see the cheap EVs in 2025 and beyond as cheaper batteries become a reality.

OK, you got me, but if a "practical" EV is overpriced, compared to an ICE equivalent, is it "practical"?
 
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OK, you got me, but if a "practical" EV is overpriced, compared to an ICE equivalent, is it "practical"?
That's up to the consumer (seems like they're saying yes). Where I live in the PNW, people were more than willing to turn in their Honda Civics and Toyota Priuses (seriously, these were a huge chunk of trade-ins) for a Tesla Model 3 or similar that were significantly more expensive.

Again, we'll see better price parity in a few years. If you're particularly price sensitive then sure it may not be the right choice for you right now.
 

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A Fad. A Statis Symbol, A Ticket to a Higher Society.

Has alot more to do with the trend than Practical Transportation IMO.

Nothing against Americans, however I live on a Border Town, it is a Main Access for Tourism Travel to Canada. I have watched for many years with amazement, American Travellers coming into Canada in Motorhomes towing Boats to fish our Lakes. There are many convos of 3-5 Identical Motorhomes towing Identical Boats, racing to be first in line. Sometimes there is 1 that has a 2' longer boat (same brand) with 50 extra HP Motor on the back. Why?
I think the auto industry was tricked by the Prius. I think the Prius was a fluke (right thing at the right time/political mood with the right styling at the right price) - instead of the great new hybrid tech being launched in a high end vehicle as tech normally is.

I think that led the industry to thinking they could penetrate pure electric that way too, but missed the cheap price tag of the Prius. I think the major makes would've been better off using their high end brands to launch BEV. Bolt should've been a stylish Cadillac and the Leaf an Infiniti and BMW never should've made that nerdy BEV vehicle. A $40k Bolt is a tough sell.
 

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Honestly, I believe that "Most" of the major component Chips are available, or it seems that way anyways. There are some constraints like Stop/Start, Rear Seat HVAC Controls, Multi Contour Seats. But the Vehicles can be built and sold without these features (Fords anyways)

That said, Sales Numbers will start showing signs of gaining ground, but Dealers Lots and Factory Orders will still require some time as all of the Back Orders are filled.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
That's up to the consumer (seems like they're saying yes). Where I live in the PNW, people were more than willing to turn in their Honda Civics and Toyota Priuses (seriously, these were a huge chunk of trade-ins) for a Tesla Model 3 or similar that were significantly more expensive.

Again, we'll see better price parity in a few years. If you're particularly price sensitive then sure it may not be the right choice for you right now.
A Tesla 3 is "practical"?
 
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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Toyota Sales Are Going From Bad to Worse (msn.com)

Interesting that most makes are clinging to the second half of they year being a lot stronger - they must know chip supplies will be better soon.
Toyota was up a lot last year, (+44.5% in Q1/Q2 2021) because they were one of the few that had banked chips/components/inventory, with the continuation of supply-chain challenges, of course they are going to be down compared to the fist 1/2 of last year.
 
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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
I think the auto industry was tricked by the Prius. I think the Prius was a fluke (right thing at the right time/political mood with the right styling at the right price) - instead of the great new hybrid tech being launched in a high end vehicle as tech normally is.

I think that led the industry to thinking they could penetrate pure electric that way too, but missed the cheap price tag of the Prius. I think the major makes would've been better off using their high end brands to launch BEV. Bolt should've been a stylish Cadillac and the Leaf an Infiniti and BMW never should've made that nerdy BEV vehicle. A $40k Bolt is a tough sell.
A compact hatchback that get 50-55 MPG?.... "tricked"?

One of the primary reasons for the decline in the Prius is all the other Hybrids that Toyota offers...

🤫
 
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A compact hatchback that get 50-55 MPG?.... "tricked"?

One of the primary reasons for the decline in the Prius is all the other Hybrids that Toyota offers...

🤫
No, not talking about the decline of the Prius, I'm talking about the success of the Prius tricking other makes into thinking that was the right way to launch their more expensive green tech.
 

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Toyota was up a lot last year, (+44.5% in Q1/Q2 2021) because they were one of the few that had banked chips/components/inventory, with the continuation of supply-chain challenges, of course they are going to be down compared to the fist 1/2 of last year.
Yup - just looking at it at the angle that most of the auto makes continue to say things will improve this year even in light of many not doing well right now. We are "running out of 2022" to get more chips to increase sales volume.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
No, not talking about the decline of the Prius, I'm talking about the success of the Prius tricking other makes into thinking that was the right way to launch their more expensive green tech.
Has anyone else built an economical "Prius Fighter" that failed?
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
Yup - just looking at it at the angle that most of the auto makes continue to say things will improve this year even in light of many not doing well right now. We are "running out of 2022" to get more chips to increase sales volume.
I wasn't able to find July 2022 Sales numbers for Toyota, I still think China making funny-business....
 
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Has anyone else built an economical "Prius Fighter" that failed?
Honda did.

But, my point is, the success of the Prius led GM and the rest of the industry to try to emulate their approach. But the tech they were using was more expensive than the Prius hybrid tech and to me, and apparently the market, a $40k Prius equivalent doesn't light the masses on fire.
 

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I'm talking about the success of the Prius tricking other makes into thinking that was the right way to launch their more expensive green tech.
Ford certainly wasn't tricked. It developed its own power-split hybrid powertrain, independent of Toyota, though Ford was proactive in avoiding patent lawsuits and thus obtained licenses from Toyota, in exchange for Toyota obtaining licenses on some of Ford's diesel and direct-injection spark ignition technologies.

Ford has been very successful with both the engineering and marketing aspects of its hybrid vehicles over the past 18 years. The main issue Ford faces today is that demand for its hybrids far exceeds production.
 
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That's up to the consumer (seems like they're saying yes). Where I live in the PNW, people were more than willing to turn in their Honda Civics and Toyota Priuses (seriously, these were a huge chunk of trade-ins) for a Tesla Model 3 or similar that were significantly more expensive.
Not sure the Prius crowd is representative of the majority of the market........
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Ford certainly wasn't tricked. It developed its own power-split hybrid powertrain, independent of Toyota, though Ford was proactive in avoiding patent lawsuits and thus obtained licenses from Toyota, in exchange for Toyota obtaining licenses on some of Ford's diesel and direct-injection spark ignition technologies.

Ford has been very successful with both the engineering and marketing aspects of its hybrid vehicles over the past 18 years. The main issue Ford faces today is that demand for its hybrids far exceeds production.
Ford used for all intents the same hybrid tech. And Ford never really went after that Prius crowd looking for that green styling statement. But that isn't my point - I'm talking about more advanced, expensive, hybrid tech - GM's Volt and earlier BEV (Bolt, Leaf) - all trying to attract that Prius crowd but failed with their $40k price tags. GM, Nissan and BMW, etc. tried making their hybrid tech for the masses but with $40k price tags. The tech they all used should've been launched in more expensive vehicles.
 

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I'm talking about more advanced, expensive, hybrid tech - GM's Volt and earlier BEV (Bolt, Leaf) - all trying to attract that Prius crowd but failed with their $40k price tags. GM, Nissan and BMW, etc. tried making their hybrid tech for the masses but with $40k price tags. The tech they all used should've been launched in more expensive vehicles.
Good points BlackGTP. What saddens me about the premature demise of GM's 2-Mode Hybrid and Voltec programs is that they didn't fail because of technical issues or obsolescence, but to inept marketing. 2-Mode and Voltec represented superior engineering compared to the Ford and Toyota power-split hybrid powertrains, but GM marketing dweebs doomed both almost from the start.
 
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