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I imagine that Ford’s stock in Rivian took another hit which is why the $3.3 billion from Automotive and $980 million from Ford Credit reduced to an EBIT of less than $700 million quickly.
 

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So, you didn't listen to what Farley said, which means you didn't understand what I said... 'great'

The runaway inflation is changing the equation for all companies, you act like GM is immune? Did you forget about their Q2 earning report already?



Lets ignore for a moment that it was H1 (and not a quarter) but you were replying to this story:

Stellantis posts record first half profit margin ahead of EV reveals

And said this...



So what exactly did you mean?
This conversation will quickly devolve, so I'm stepping out.
 

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Aren't you judging a little early? The first Ultium isn't even 98% on line yet. Not sure what you expect - you need a plant to produce batteries and so far everything is going to plan that they laid out many years ago.

Yes, Ford is ahead, but I'm fine with that as GM's approach is much more cohesive and Ford is 2 or so years out from something comparable. Frustrating right now, but once the product starts coming it'll be fine.
My question is: What happens when GM's entire product line, for the future, is almost all EV................... and the buyers aren't there??
 

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My question is: What happens when GM entire product line for the future is almost all EV................... and the buyers aren't there??
I saw that Klaus Schwab is now calling for the end of "wasteful private car ownership," so I guess the plan is only for upper and upper middle class EV lovers to own cars.
 

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I just read in Canadian Auto Dealer that the Global Vehicle Market is returning to 2017 levels and should reach 2017 levels by 2024. They also show that the only market growing is EV. EV's accounting for basically 0 sales in 2017 and maybe 5% in 2020 (Globally).

Region20202019201820172016201520142013
Europe (EU+UK+EFTA)11,961,20015,805,80015,624,50015,631,70015,131,70014,201,90013,006,50012,308,200
Russia*1,598,8001,759,5001,800,6001,595,7001,425,8001,601,2002,491,4002,777,400
USA*14,450,80016,965,20017,215,20017,134,70017,465,00017,386,30016,435,30015,531,600
Japan3,810,0004,301,1004,391,2004,386,4004,146,5004,215,9004,699,6004,562,300
Brazil*1,954,8002,665,6002,475,4002,176,0001,988,6002,480,5003,333,4003,579,900
India2,435,1002,962,1003,394,7003,229,1002,966,6002,772,7002,570,5002,554,000
China19,790,00021,045,00023,256,30024,171,40023,693,40020,047,20018,368,90016,303,700
*Light vehicles
Combined:56,000,70065,504,30068,157,90068,325,00066,817,60062,705,70060,905,60057,617,100


That is still over 55 MILLION ICE Vehicles by 2024, and less than 13 Million EV's. If GM is going to be 100% EV in the future, even though it is the "Growing Market" it is just a fraction of the overall Market, they have to bring their A Game, not just Promises, and they have to bring it Now. The Market won't get much bigger, and the ICE demand isn't going smaller
 

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My question is: What happens when GM entire product line for the future is almost all EV................... and the buyers aren't there??
Same goes for every other make out there - just about all of them are hurtling towards the same destination. I'm certain the government won't let that happen, they'll keep throwing incentives at BEV...
 

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I just read in Canadian Auto Dealer that the Global Vehicle Market is returning to 2017 levels and should reach 2017 levels by 2024. They also show that the only market growing is EV. EV's accounting for basically 0 sales in 2017 and maybe 5% in 2020 (Globally).

Region20202019201820172016201520142013
Europe (EU+UK+EFTA)11,961,20015,805,80015,624,50015,631,70015,131,70014,201,90013,006,50012,308,200
Russia*1,598,8001,759,5001,800,6001,595,7001,425,8001,601,2002,491,4002,777,400
USA*14,450,80016,965,20017,215,20017,134,70017,465,00017,386,30016,435,30015,531,600
Japan3,810,0004,301,1004,391,2004,386,4004,146,5004,215,9004,699,6004,562,300
Brazil*1,954,8002,665,6002,475,4002,176,0001,988,6002,480,5003,333,4003,579,900
India2,435,1002,962,1003,394,7003,229,1002,966,6002,772,7002,570,5002,554,000
China19,790,00021,045,00023,256,30024,171,40023,693,40020,047,20018,368,90016,303,700
*Light vehicles
Combined:56,000,70065,504,30068,157,90068,325,00066,817,60062,705,70060,905,60057,617,100


That is still over 55 MILLION ICE Vehicles by 2024, and less than 13 Million EV's. If GM is going to be 100% EV in the future, even though it is the "Growing Market" it is just a fraction of the overall Market, they have to bring their A Game, not just Promises, and they have to bring it Now. The Market won't get much bigger, and the ICE demand isn't going smaller
The problem with this trend is the availability wasn't there. Meaning no Ultium plants and VW, Ford, etc. equivalents - the sales were small because there wasn't much to buy, and most of what was there, excluding Tesla, was heavily leaning toward "science project" which appeals to a limited group. We won't really know until these mainstream products start hitting en masse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
This conversation will quickly devolve, so I'm stepping out.
I'm sorry you didn't hear any of the Farley's interviews; him talking about Q2 earnings would have made this a lot more balanced and productive conversation.

Can you believe Ford raised the dividend 50%!?
 
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I'm sorry you didn't hear any of the Farley's interviews; him talking about Q2 earnings would have made this a lot more balanced and productive conversation.

Can you believe Ford raised the dividend 50%!?
I shouldn't respond to your snide assumptions (and your comment proved out my point) but here goes. The below is a transcript of his comments pertaining to this. Can you highlight the areas that will make these 8,000 people feel warm and fuzzy? Take out the corporate babble and all I see is 8k will lose their jobs. And, in the context of the entire meeting it is even worse - money hand over fist, huge dividend increase, but Joe Ice - we are letting you go.

I've been on the receiving end of similar statements. They demoralized the division when made and then when it happened it left the division I worked for traumatized. But it was worded as a great thing!!!!

Adam Jonas -- Morgan Stanley -- Analyst

Jim, the Bronco Raptor, so badass. I don't know if I put an order and now if I'll get it by the end of the decade, but maybe I'll try. Jim, this is one of the most positive Ford calls I can remember in a long, long time. Does Ford have too many people?

Jim Farley -- President and Chief Executive Officer

As I said in my comments, Adam, we absolutely have too many people in certain places, no doubt about it. And we have skills that don't work anymore. We -- and we have jobs that need to change. And we have lots of new work statements that we've never had before.

We are literally virtually -- we are reshaping our company, like every part of our company. And on our ICE business, we want to simplify it. We want to make sure the skills we have and the work statements we have are as lean as possible. We know our costs are not competitive at Ford.

But we are -- that's what I mean by we are not satisfied. But I just want to emphasize that in the past, at least in my career for 40 years, we kind of often and discriminately just taking the costs out. That's not what's happening at Ford now. This is a different kind of change where we're reshaping the company, reshaping skills, investing in new technologies and simplifying investments in others, i.e., spending less.

So -- and we have -- it's kind of the old adage. Yes, I think every company probably has too many people. I just -- we have to go do the workflows and decide how this works now going forward.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I shouldn't respond to your snide assumptions (and your comment proved out my point) but here goes. The below is a transcript of his comments pertaining to this. Can you highlight the areas that will make these 8,000 people feel warm and fuzzy? Take out the corporate babble and all I see is 8k will lose their jobs. And, in the context of the entire meeting it is even worse - money hand over fist, huge dividend increase, but Joe Ice - we are letting you go.

I've been on the receiving end of similar statements. They demoralized the division when made and then when it happened it left the division I worked for traumatized. But it was worded as a great thing!!!!

"Assumptions" - Where is the 8,000 part, am I missing it, did you not include it or doesn't it exist?..............

Do you think with the "sharp turn" GM is taking toward EV's, their isn't 8,000 - 18,000 - 28,000 ICE related employees with targets on their back?

(Thanks for proving my point, sorry this took so long, now let's get to talking about how well Ford did in Q2 and why GM didn't, and how Q3 is going to shape up)

Can you believe Ford raised their dividend 50% back to where it was pre-Covid!
 

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Remember when Ford paid upwards of 40,000 employees to go away, people realised the inevitability of that situation just as they recognise that Ford Blue will need fewer engineers and salaried staff. Evolving designs and new vehicles form here on instead of all new ICE based vehicles means the landscape changes completely.

Unlike GM, Ford Blue has a plenty of hybrid and PHEVs to offer buyers which will keep their ICE business in the game much longer than GM’s all or nothing Ultium or ICE choice.
 

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Remember when Ford paid upwards of 40,000 employees to go away, people realised the inevitability of that situation just as they recognise that Ford Blue will need fewer engineers and salaried staff. Evolving designs and new vehicles form here on instead of all new ICE based vehicles means the landscape changes completely.

Unlike GM, Ford Blue has a plenty of hybrid and PHEVs to offer buyers which will keep their ICE business in the game much longer than GM’s all or nothing Ultium or ICE choice.
GM has a long history of jumping into tech before everyone or the tech is quite ready, like the CRT screens in the '80s. I do have fears GM has repeated that. It'll be a wild ride if they bet wrong.

But no matter what, as you said, the landscape will change a lot!
 

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...And hopefully it wont become a trend.
Hopefully this one quarter is a fluke. We've seen it over and over again with this chip shortage - up one quarter then down the next as the car manufacturers manage their results with chip supplies and efficient manufacturing. As a wise person once said to me "a sample of one is not a good sample".
 

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Hopefully this one quarter is a fluke. We've seen it over and over again with this chip shortage - up one quarter then down the next as the car manufacturers manage their results with chip supplies and efficient manufacturing. As a wise person once said to me "a sample of one is not a good sample".
Correct, we also have the added confusion of Ford’s Rivian stock reporting every quarter now, paper losses for now but still changing the headlin of an otherwise good quarterly report.
 

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The problem with this trend is the availability wasn't there. Meaning no Ultium plants and VW, Ford, etc. equivalents - the sales were small because there wasn't much to buy, and most of what was there, excluding Tesla, was heavily leaning toward "science project" which appeals to a limited group. We won't really know until these mainstream products start hitting en masse.
VW ID.4 has 153 Days Supply, Show me anything "Tesla" close to that Days Supply? Chop nearly 100 off of that number @ 53. VW has 153 days of ID.4 inventory?

In fact Tesla's Numbers are crazy amidst the Supply Chain issues at 254,000 in the 2nd Quarter. https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-q2-2022-production-deliveries/

Remembering VW is the Largest Manufacture, Tesla is a New Comer and EV only.
 

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VW ID.4 has 153 Days Supply, Show me anything "Tesla" close to that Days Supply? Chop nearly 100 off of that number @ 53. VW has 153 days of ID.4 inventory?

In fact Tesla's Numbers are crazy amidst the Supply Chain issues at 254,000 in the 2nd Quarter. https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-q2-2022-production-deliveries/

Remembering VW is the Largest Manufacture, Tesla is a New Comer and EV only.
And VW may have simply missed the mark with what the market wants, right now it is still "a sample of one". There simply isn't enough data to see what the market is telling us yet.
 

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I also think the de
VW ID.4 has 153 Days Supply, Show me anything "Tesla" close to that Days Supply? Chop nearly 100 off of that number @ 53. VW has 153 days of ID.4 inventory?

In fact Tesla's Numbers are crazy amidst the Supply Chain issues at 254,000 in the 2nd Quarter. https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-q2-2022-production-deliveries/

Remembering VW is the Largest Manufacture, Tesla is a New Comer and EV only.
Did you read the thread you linked? Looks like actual deliveries are still on the lower end. Clearly VW still sees the need to boost output when they bring the Chattanooga plant on line so apparently the demand is higher than what their days in inventory supply number would suggest. I know for a fact huge amounts of them were held up at ports awaiting software updates too and anecdotally they are thin on the ground at dealers in my area.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
VW ID.4 has 153 Days Supply, Show me anything "Tesla" close to that Days Supply? Chop nearly 100 off of that number @ 53. VW has 153 days of ID.4 inventory?

In fact Tesla's Numbers are crazy amidst the Supply Chain issues at 254,000 in the 2nd Quarter. https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-q2-2022-production-deliveries/

Remembering VW is the Largest Manufacture, Tesla is a New Comer and EV only.
This has me thinking.......

If a conservative, everyday "practical" EV has trouble finding buyers, but not a Tesla; has the industry been fooled into thinking there is more demand for "practical" EV's than there really is?
 
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