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I can't believe I voted "No".

When my dad took me to the drive in back in '77 to see Burt Reynolds and that black and gold Trans-Am I was hooked.

The first car I ever bought was a '73 Firebird. I replaced it in '96 with a WS6 Trans Am (but it still hurt to see it drive away.)

I have about 30 die cast Firebirds (and many more of the Hot Wheels size ones) and about every "coffee-table book" on Firebirds ever written.

I've converted my closet into a library for old car magazines (High Performance Pontiac, etc.)

So you see ... it's kindof like a sickness. I am a Firebird Freak.

But ... times have changed. (Sad to say.) Unlike the 60's when muscle-cars ruled, we are still caught in SUV/Truck hell. But things are looking better, with more and more RWD and V-8 performance cars coming back.

Chevy does need the Camaro. They no longer have a player in the muscle-car segment. (I love the Corvette - but it is in another class.)

But as long as Pontiac has the GTO, the Firebird is unnecessary. I expect the Camaro and GTO to basically be twins... not necessarilly looking as close as the Camaro and Firebirds looked, but sharing the same platform, engine, etc.

There is still room to grow the "muscle-car" segment though. I doubt if they will attempt to stuff a V-8 in a smaller car, so the Solstice will have to do in the small car segment. (Supercharge that ecotech to 240hp and you will have a very nice small performance car.) The other direction is the larger car segment.

There are already rumors of Chevy bringing back the Caprice. (Although I can't imagine they would use that name.) RWD Monte Carlo, Impala, Grand Prix (with V-8s) sounds like a good fit. (I would also love the Bonneville GXP to go RWD.)

The Firebird (in a sense) replaced the GTO back in the early 70's. Now (sadly) I guess it is time for the GTO to have a turn.

Steve
 

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Originally posted by salbracht@May 18 2004, 01:13 PM
Chevy does need the Camaro. They no longer have a player in the muscle-car segment. (I love the Corvette - but it is in another class.)

But as long as Pontiac has the GTO, the Firebird is unnecessary. I expect the Camaro and GTO to basically be twins... not necessarilly looking as close as the Camaro and Firebirds looked, but sharing the same platform, engine, etc.
I'd rather have a Firebird over a Soltice anyday.

The problem with the GTO is it's way out of any non-Financially stable person's reach. I see Mustang LX's for 12K now, and GT are somewhere around 18-25K depending on features.


The GTO is 32? 33? 34K? I've even seen Mach 1's for 25.8K.....so really their not reaching the same audience.

I like the GTO, but if someone tells me I can have a 05 Mustang w/300 hp, and a 0-60 time of 5.2. Then someone tells me I can have a GTO w/350 hp, and a 0-60 time of 5.2 or 5.3. After I find out there is a 7K+ difference in price.....I'd have to go with a 05 Mustang.

The only problem that a Firebird would present is that it would hurt GTO sales, and Pontiac would cancel them both anyways.
 

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Originally posted by Mestizo+May 18 2004, 04:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mestizo @ May 18 2004, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-salbracht@May 18 2004, 01:13 PM
Chevy does need the Camaro.  They no longer have a player in the muscle-car segment.  (I love the Corvette - but it is in another class.)

But as long as Pontiac has the GTO, the Firebird is unnecessary.  I expect the Camaro and GTO to basically be twins... not necessarilly looking as close as the Camaro and Firebirds looked, but sharing the same platform, engine, etc.
I'd rather have a Firebird over a Soltice anyday.

The problem with the GTO is it's way out of any non-Financially stable person's reach. I see Mustang LX's for 12K now, and GT are somewhere around 18-25K depending on features.


The GTO is 32? 33? 34K? I've even seen Mach 1's for 25.8K.....so really their not reaching the same audience.

I like the GTO, but if someone tells me I can have a 05 Mustang w/300 hp, and a 0-60 time of 5.2. Then someone tells me I can have a GTO w/350 hp, and a 0-60 time of 5.2 or 5.3. After I find out there is a 7K+ difference in price.....I'd have to go with a 05 Mustang.

The only problem that a Firebird would present is that it would hurt GTO sales, and Pontiac would cancel them both anyways. [/b][/quote]
Mestizo, I couldn't agree with you more. I've posted to this forum several times that I thought the GTO was way overpriced. (Probably made some enemies in doing so.)

I still don't think it would make sense to make both the GTO and a Firebird at the same time. How would they differ? Make the Firebird a little smaller? Maybe. Drop the quality of the Firebird to justify it's lower price. No way!

I think making two models (not to mention the Camaro) so close in function will do nothing but split the sales between the two, with neither being economically sound.

I love the Firebird. It was a horrible day when the last one rolled off the line. Unfortunately, I think it is gone for the time being.

The only way (my opinion) for the Firebird to come back would be for the GTO to flop so bad that they stop making them and look for another Pontiac performance coupe to replace it.

Steve
 

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Look at how they did it in the past...

The GTO is obviously an upscale pseudo-executives hot rod. The Firebird/Trans Am's were comfortable better looking (imo) camaro's that hauled *** for a low price.

GTO should be 32-34k.

Base V6 bird should be... lets say 18-19k. Forget the formula this time around. Trans Am's start at 23-24k and a fully loaded WS6 would cost around 30-32k like it used to.

It really is possible to make the GTO and the Birds 2 totally different animals. Just use your imagination.
 

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The Firebird is to the Camaro like Abbot is to Costello. The two are synonamous to each other.

The GTO is a different animal IMO. And, the current GTO lacks any of the Aggressive styling ques of the previous Camaro/Firebird.

To describe the SS and the WS6 in there appearance would be to say the SS looks like it can kick your a$$ and the WS6 looks like it is coming to kick your a$$.

If GM is gonna bring back the Camaro and/or the Firebird on the Zeta platform it will need to be aggressively styled and not a rebadged Holden.
 

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Originally posted by actionjack@May 18 2004, 01:29 PM
To describe the SS and the WS6 in there appearance would be to say the SS looks like it can kick your a$$ and the WS6 looks like it is coming to kick your a$$.
That's freakin brilliant. :lol:

Seriously though guys, they really are 2 different animals. It's like saying the Grand Prix and the Grand Am/G6 both aren't needed because they're both just FWD sedans. Another example would be the old malibu to the impala I suppose.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Originally posted by actionjack@May 18 2004, 08:29 PM
The Firebird is to the Camaro like Abbot is to Costello. The two are synonamous to each other.

The GTO is a different animal IMO. And, the current GTO lacks any of the Aggressive styling ques of the previous Camaro/Firebird.

To describe the SS and the WS6 in there appearance would be to say the SS looks like it can kick your a$$ and the WS6 looks like it is coming to kick your a$$.

If GM is gonna bring back the Camaro and/or the Firebird on the Zeta platform it will need to be aggressively styled and not a rebadged Holden.
you gto lovers close your ears cuz you aint gonna agree with me



i would like to say thank you action jack i couldnt agree with you more.i am on the firebirds side. now i have to admit i was very excited when i heard rumors of the gto returning to the playground and then i was dissapointed when i saw it for the first time. i thought oh great a high performance grand am. i dont mean to bash the ugly thing so much but hey what can you do. after all look what they stopped making stylish qualityfast and reliable cars (firebirds) and for what the (gt :lol:) what a dissapointment
 

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The G6 coupe and GTO occupy the Firebirds position, and Pontiacs coupe department would be to crowded. Chevrolet has room in its model lineup for the Camaro. I'd like to hear some other opions in this. :p B)
 

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I'm against the Firebird's return, because I think it will be another GM "me too" rebadge just like the old Firebird. If the Camaro and Firebird are going to share a chassis, I think the styling differences need to be as distinct as the XLR/C6, Sigma (CTS, SRX, STS), Kappa (Solstice, Nomad, Curve), and Epsilon (Malibu, Malibu Maxx, G6) based cars. Maybe give the Firebird a V-10 or V-12, or optional AWD. It has to go down the street and make people say "Yeah, that's a Firebird." and not "It was one of those Trans Am IROC thingies, I think. I don't know, they all look the same."
 

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Go sit in the corner. Now. 1 hour. And wear the helmet. :eek:

I don't know what you're on man but the 3rd and 4th gen F-bodies looked NOTHING like each other, aside from general shape. Go look at a bird, and then a camaro. Front side, back side, side view, I don't care. You can't convince me that you can mix the two up.

Friggin asinine. It's okay to sell over 5 different types of rebadged blazers but dear god we can't have 2 RWD coupes. <_<

On another note... the G6 is a front drive 6 banger. It will NOT nor will it EVER take the place of a firebird or even dream of touching it.
 

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Originally posted by Chops@May 20 2004, 12:03 AM
Go sit in the corner. Now. 1 hour. And wear the helmet. :eek:

I don't know what you're on man but the 3rd and 4th gen F-bodies looked NOTHING like each other, aside from general shape. Go look at a bird, and then a camaro. Front side, back side, side view, I don't care. You can't convince me that you can mix the two up.

Friggin asinine. It's okay to sell over 5 different types of rebadged blazers but dear god we can't have 2 RWD coupes. <_<

On another note... the G6 is a front drive 6 banger. It will NOT nor will it EVER take the place of a firebird or even dream of touching it.
I agree 100%. If you can't tell a Firebird and Camaro apart you need to put the pipe down. :blink: Also the 4 generations of Firebirds are VERY different!!
 

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GTO is overpriced? How do you figure? Most of the people looking at the GTO arent look at a Mustang. They are 2 very different cars. Maybe if the Mustang wanted to party in the performance lux coupe market, ok. But tell me why is the GTO overpriced? A TA or SS loaded with what the GTO comes with could reach upwards of 35k... but that was reasonable?

As for the Bird, its sad but its not coming back. Would I like to see it come back? Not really. Pontiac has its GTO which will be positioned higher then the Camaro as far as performance and luxury. Standard options will be plenty. It will be the higher end car. I would like to see the two come back together, but all in all I really hope it doesnt. Let the Camaro take the 20-35 market while the GTO takes it from 35 and up.

Stop hating on the GTO. Its going to get better and better as years come and by the time its home grown here in the US(or Canada) it will be just the car we all wanted it to be. It wont be a retro-mobile, but it will be a GTO. Its getting its "much needed" (rolleyes) scoops and more power next year.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Originally posted by bearishpeter+May 20 2004, 01:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bearishpeter @ May 20 2004, 01:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Chops@May 20 2004, 12:03 AM
Go sit in the corner. Now. 1 hour. And wear the helmet.  :eek:

I don't know what you're on man but the 3rd and 4th gen F-bodies looked NOTHING like each other, aside from general shape. Go look at a bird, and then a camaro. Front side, back side, side view, I don't care. You can't convince me that you can mix the two up.

Friggin asinine. It's okay to sell over 5 different types of rebadged blazers but dear god we can't have 2 RWD coupes.  <_<

On another note... the G6 is a front drive 6 banger. It will NOT nor will it EVER take the place of a firebird or even dream of touching it.
I agree 100%. If you can't tell a Firebird and Camaro apart you need to put the pipe down. :blink: Also the 4 generations of Firebirds are VERY different!! [/b][/quote]
yes i agree there is a big difference between the two.for example look at the hoods,tail lights,head lights,interior,doors,rear quarters,and front ends.If you cant see the difference you might need to go see an optometrist.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Originally posted by bigals87z28@May 20 2004, 02:34 AM
GTO is overpriced? How do you figure? Most of the people looking at the GTO arent look at a Mustang. They are 2 very different cars. Maybe if the Mustang wanted to party in the performance lux coupe market, ok. But tell me why is the GTO overpriced? A TA or SS loaded with what the GTO comes with could reach upwards of 35k... but that was reasonable?

As for the Bird, its sad but its not coming back. Would I like to see it come back? Not really. Pontiac has its GTO which will be positioned higher then the Camaro as far as performance and luxury. Standard options will be plenty. It will be the higher end car. I would like to see the two come back together, but all in all I really hope it doesnt. Let the Camaro take the 20-35 market while the GTO takes it from 35 and up.

Stop hating on the GTO. Its going to get better and better as years come and by the time its home grown here in the US(or Canada) it will be just the car we all wanted it to be. It wont be a retro-mobile, but it will be a GTO. Its getting its "much needed" (rolleyes) scoops and more power next year.
if the gto is going to be a high end car compared to the camaro,doesn't it make sense to have the counterpart there with it.basicly what i am asking is if the gto is going to be put up there with the vette or right below it,shouldn't we have the option of a lesser priced car that is still very sporty and fun to drive . firebirds are loved by many people just as you have the people that love the camaros. i personally think they should bring them back together.and the reason is not only for tradition but for the people who love them.


can you imagine this for a moment (((((((the new camaro is here and i guess ill go get one but if the firebird was here thats what i would get for sure maybe i am just into firebirds too much.......nah i don't think so, i know what i like, and like many people i will be dissapointed if the bird does not come back with the camaro. :( :(




thanks for taking the time to read my opinion
 

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Well ya know what? Pontiac guys can't have their birds, then chevy guys can't have their camaros. And as far as I'm aware a new camaro is just a pipe dream anyhow because of the CAW.

:argue:

Edit: and who's to say that all the bird fans will just go out and buy a camaro? hell with that. if gm wants to **** me over like that i'll go buy a stang.
 

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Personally, I can tell what's a Firebird and what's a Camaro. I'm talking about the general public, laypersons, non-car enthusiasts, the average Joe.
 

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Originally posted by GN6@May 19 2004, 09:35 PM
I'm against the Firebird's return, because I think it will be another GM "me too" rebadge just like the old Firebird. If the Camaro and Firebird are going to share a chassis, I think the styling differences need to be as distinct as the XLR/C6, Sigma (CTS, SRX, STS), Kappa (Solstice, Nomad, Curve), and Epsilon (Malibu, Malibu Maxx, G6) based cars. Maybe give the Firebird a V-10 or V-12, or optional AWD. It has to go down the street and make people say "Yeah, that's a Firebird." and not "It was one of those Trans Am IROC thingies, I think. I don't know, they all look the same."
how hi was the tree?? you know the one you must have fell out of.
 

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Originally posted by GN6@May 20 2004, 03:35 PM
Personally, I can tell what's a Firebird and what's a Camaro. I'm talking about the general public, laypersons, non-car enthusiasts, the average Joe.
GN6 Have you owned an F-Body?
:rolleyes:
 

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Originally posted by Chops@May 20 2004, 05:48 AM
Well ya know what? Pontiac guys can't have their birds, then chevy guys can't have their camaros. And as far as I'm aware a new camaro is just a pipe dream anyhow because of the CAW.

:argue:

Edit: and who's to say that all the bird fans will just go out and buy a camaro? hell with that. if gm wants to **** me over like that i'll go buy a stang.
just to clairfy what you said, the deal was with the Ste.Therese plant, not the CAW. The expansion of the Oshawa plant added more jobs then the Ste.T plant let go, so the CAW is happy. The Ste.T plant has been destroyed as of late march.
 
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