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This is completely outrageous. Once again, the government, in it's shortsightedness, decided that it can save a few US jobs by giving a rival to the nation's biggest industry an unfair advantage. Like they freaking need it.

The Feds are worried that Nissan will move a production plant overseas if they weren't given the exception. Let them go. A couple thousand jobs lost to a foreign employer is nothing compared to what will happen in this country if the Feds continue to give imports ANOTHER advantage. Lost market share translates into lost jobs, and 1 in 9 people in this country has work that has SOMETHING to do with the auto industry.

If this happened with a US manufacturer in Japan, I can guarantee we would not receive the same consideration from their government.


This just completely galls me.

End of rant!
 

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Originally posted by vanshmack@Apr 21 2004, 07:21 PM
A couple thousand jobs lost to a foreign employer is nothing compared to what will happen in this country if the Feds continue to give imports ANOTHER advantage. Lost market share translates into lost jobs, and 1 in 9 people in this country has work that has SOMETHING to do with the auto industry.
foreign employer... employing americans in america! i know this debate is raging on in other threads, but as you point out 1 in 9 americans depends on the auto industry. not GM, ford and chrysler, but the auto industry. i don't think nissan deserves this break at all. there's no point having rules if they don't apply evenly to everyone. however, i don't think it's healthy to just brush off the influence import plants in america have. where will the 1000 people from the nissan plant that closes go work? is GM hiring? i agree with your criticism... but not with your argument!
 

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Originally posted by paul8488+Apr 21 2004, 02:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (paul8488 @ Apr 21 2004, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-vanshmack@Apr 21 2004, 07:21 PM
A couple thousand jobs lost to a foreign employer is nothing compared to what will happen in this country if the Feds continue to give imports ANOTHER advantage.  Lost market share translates into lost jobs, and 1 in 9 people in this country has work that has SOMETHING to do with the auto industry.
foreign employer... employing americans in america! i know this debate is raging on in other threads, but as you point out 1 in 9 americans depends on the auto industry. not GM, ford and chrysler, but the auto industry. i don't think nissan deserves this break at all. there's no point having rules if they don't apply evenly to everyone. however, i don't think it's healthy to just brush off the influence import plants in america have. where will the 1000 people from the nissan plant that closes go work? is GM hiring? i agree with your criticism... but not with your argument! [/b][/quote]
I understand that we are talking about Americans losing their jobs and families being affected. However, if the government continues this distrubing trend in offering preferential treatment to the competitors of our auto industry, then the only auto workers remaining will be the ones in the foreign-owned factories. Where will all THOSE workers go?

I don't think that Honda/Toyota/Nissan are hiring THAT many people, are they?
 

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Honda, Toyota, and Nissan ARE employing that many people. Add to it the multiplier effect that each assembly plant job has dozens of supplier jobs tied to it. Toyota and Nissan (and now Honda) have created an automotive corridor in the Southeast that employs tens-of-thousands. Toyota makes over 400k vehicles a year in Kentucky. Nissan makes 500k vehicles a year in Tennesse an another 150k in Mississippi. Honda makes 150k in Alabama. All of these vehicles have some 70% or more North American content...parts supplied by companies based in the US or Canada.

If Nissan doesn't get this exemption, they will place their next plant somewhere else (probably Japan) or supply more parts from countries outside of North America. Either way, its a LONG TERM loss of jobs. Once you invest in production, it takes a number of years to pay off that investment which means years go by before you can put those jobs somewhere else.

It makes perfect sense to grant this to Nissan. GM sent jobs to China to supply engines to the Equinox....were you guys complaining then? How about the Australian-sourced 3.6L V6? Or the V6 in the Saturn L-Series from England? Or the Korean-sourced Chevrolet Aveo (replacing the North American-built Metro)? All Nissan vehicles built in North America have North American-sourced engines...meaning Americans build the engines from mostly American-sourced parts (more American jobs). How many Americans build the 3.4L V6 for the Equinox?
 

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Originally posted by Hudson@Apr 22 2004, 09:06 AM
Honda, Toyota, and Nissan ARE employing that many people.
If they are going to be treated / considered on equal ground with domestic companies, they need to move their headquarters and half of their engineering to the US (set up a division like GM's Opel or Holden) - at least Honda pulls in 90% of its profit from the US market alone - then takes a huge chunk of that cash home. As I've pointed out in other posts, I've reaped the rewards of sitting in on extravagant dinner entertainment in Tokyo paid in part by American car sales profits. It's probably what soured me to at least a couple of Japanese makers.

Assembly lines and supplier jobs are good, but cutting edge engineering is where the future is. Any 3rd world country can supply assembly line workers. It's nothing to be very proud of when the majority of engineering is done in Japan, and when it is done "here" half of the team are transplanted engineers from Japan (Titan), while the Americans "helping design" the vehicles are marketing and artist types. That's not fooling anyone. I'm not sure if German makers do the same sort of thing, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't blame Honda / Toyota / Nissan for taking their approach, but they are just as "American" in the end as GM is "Indian" for having a development center or factory in India. I'm sure the Indians would rather have a home grown business succeed instead (though they won't turn down the jobs) - its only natural.
 

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Since when is the National Highway Safety and Transportation Administration a ****** job bank?

This is severely insulting to American workers, both for domestic and foreign corporations, and I think maybe this is something that a congressional hearing needs to examine. Unfortunately, I don't have any faith in the ability of congress to do a damned thing about it.
 
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I'm gonna call my representative. I'd advise others out there to do the same.

<_<
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Originally posted by Hudson@Apr 22 2004, 09:06 AM
Honda, Toyota, and Nissan ARE employing that many people. Add to it the multiplier effect that each assembly plant job has dozens of supplier jobs tied to it. Toyota and Nissan (and now Honda) have created an automotive corridor in the Southeast that employs tens-of-thousands. Toyota makes over 400k vehicles a year in Kentucky. Nissan makes 500k vehicles a year in Tennesse an another 150k in Mississippi. Honda makes 150k in Alabama. All of these vehicles have some 70% or more North American content...parts supplied by companies based in the US or Canada.

If Nissan doesn't get this exemption, they will place their next plant somewhere else (probably Japan) or supply more parts from countries outside of North America. Either way, its a LONG TERM loss of jobs. Once you invest in production, it takes a number of years to pay off that investment which means years go by before you can put those jobs somewhere else.

It makes perfect sense to grant this to Nissan. GM sent jobs to China to supply engines to the Equinox....were you guys complaining then? How about the Australian-sourced 3.6L V6? Or the V6 in the Saturn L-Series from England? Or the Korean-sourced Chevrolet Aveo (replacing the North American-built Metro)? All Nissan vehicles built in North America have North American-sourced engines...meaning Americans build the engines from mostly American-sourced parts (more American jobs). How many Americans build the 3.4L V6 for the Equinox?
Uhh, so what you're saying is, the import brands directly and indirectly employ as many Americans as the the domestics? Let's see, based on your figures, the imports build roughly 1.2 million vehicles here. No small number, certainly, but a fraction of what the Big Three build in this country. Basically, your argument is without merit.

Secondly, you're trying to compare GM sourcing vehicles and engines from it's global divisions to Nissan receiving favoritism from our government. You're not making any sense here.

- GM does not receive emissions and fuel economy exemptions, tax breaks, etc. from the Japanese. True, GM does not build cars in Japan, mainly because of the the protectionist trade policied embraced by the Japanese government. They don't want us selling cars there, nor do they want us building cars there.

- GM sources engines and vehicles from their overseas divisions that are quite simply not available here. GM builds engines in China because Shanghai GM has the capacity to do so, and they're are selling a TON of vehicles to the Chinese market. Australian-sourced parts are nothing new to GM, as they've been doing ot for years. Either way, the profits come back here. I can tell you that GM has not gone to the governments of these two nations and said, "We need an exemption for XXXX, give it to us or we're going to build YYYY somewhere else!" This is what Nissan did, and it's flat out wrong. Let them go!

While we're at it, what about the dumping the Japanese makers have been doing for the past 20 years? Believe me, this would stop if there was an import tariff slapped on every vehicle sold by a Japanese manufacturer in the US. I'm all for protectionist measures if they are being used to combat unfaor protectionist policy.
 

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GM builds engines in China because Shanghai GM has the capacity to do so, and they're are selling a TON of vehicles to the Chinese market. Australian-sourced parts are nothing new to GM, as they've been doing ot for years. Either way, the profits come back here.
So, because an American corporation makes a profit, that automatically is good for the economy in general? In other words, if tomorrow US company X closed all US plants and engineering studios in the US, then shipped the jobs overseas, because they are a company based in the US I should buy a company X product, and that will help the American economy? That is the part of your argument I can't seem to follow.

The rest of what you say I do agree with.
 

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Originally posted by cyboexpo2002@Apr 22 2004, 02:28 PM
GM builds engines in China because Shanghai GM has the capacity to do so, and they're are selling a TON of vehicles to the Chinese market. Australian-sourced parts are nothing new to GM, as they've been doing ot for years. Either way, the profits come back here.
So, because an American corporation makes a profit, that automatically is good for the economy in general? In other words, if tomorrow US company X closed all US plants and engineering studios in the US, then shipped the jobs overseas, because they are a company based in the US I should buy a company X product, and that will help the American economy? That is the part of your argument I can't seem to follow.

The rest of what you say I do agree with.
Your example is in the extreme, and of course it would be a problem for the US economy if the scenario you describe occured. But that is not the scenario here. GM builds a huge percentage of their home market stuff in North America, so there's little chance of GM sending all their res-dev-manufacturing to India and Mexico. All I'm saying is, what is good for US industry is good for the economy.
 
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Just another example of our elected representatives selling us out. Lord knows, the American auto makers (GM, Ford and Chrysler) are having a tough enough time at it is competing.

We are already starting to see the Supreme Court look at foreign courts for how to interpret law in this country. I don't think the Bulgarian Constitution should have any bearing on how the US Constitution is interpreted.

Sandra Day O'Connor's explanation is that because so much of our GDP is generated from overseas that we (the US) have a "responsibilty" to look at foreign courts. B^llsh*t. Just do what you where sworn to do, and that is, interpret the US Constitution.

Hmm, pretty soon because of all this money flowing out of the US, the US will have no need to exist. Think it can't happen ? Think again.

Buy American (support US companies) and call your Representatives and tell 'em this is b^llsh*t.

:angry:
 

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Originally posted by Ming+Apr 22 2004, 09:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ming @ Apr 22 2004, 09:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Hudson@Apr 22 2004, 09:06 AM
Honda, Toyota, and Nissan ARE employing that many people.
If they are going to be treated / considered on equal ground with domestic companies, they need to move their headquarters and half of their engineering to the US (set up a division like GM's Opel or Holden) - at least Honda pulls in 90% of its profit from the US market alone - then takes a huge chunk of that cash home.... [/b][/quote]
GM doesn't have their headquarters in Germany, but they're treated equally with VW and DaimlerChrysler. And like GM's Opel, Honda does operate a division in the US (American Honda) as does Toyota and Nissan. All three have sizable design and engineering staffs in the United States. They've all designed and engineered vehicles (for production in North America and elsewhere).
 

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Originally posted by vanshmack@Apr 22 2004, 01:53 PM
Uhh, so what you're saying is, the import brands directly and indirectly employ as many Americans as the the domestics? Let's see, based on your figures, the imports build roughly 1.2 million vehicles here. No small number, certainly, but a fraction of what the Big Three build in this country. Basically, your argument is without merit.

Secondly, you're trying to compare GM sourcing vehicles and engines from it's global divisions to Nissan receiving favoritism from our government. You're not making any sense here.

- GM does not receive emissions and fuel economy exemptions, tax breaks, etc. from the Japanese. True, GM does not build cars in Japan, mainly because of the the protectionist trade policied embraced by the Japanese government. They don't want us selling cars there, nor do they want us building cars there.

- GM sources engines and vehicles from their overseas divisions that are quite simply not available here. GM builds engines in China because Shanghai GM has the capacity to do so, and they're are selling a TON of vehicles to the Chinese market. Australian-sourced parts are nothing new to GM, as they've been doing ot for years. Either way, the profits come back here. I can tell you that GM has not gone to the governments of these two nations and said, "We need an exemption for XXXX, give it to us or we're going to build YYYY somewhere else!" This is what Nissan did, and it's flat out wrong. Let them go!

While we're at it, what about the dumping the Japanese makers have been doing for the past 20 years? Believe me, this would stop if there was an import tariff slapped on every vehicle sold by a Japanese manufacturer in the US. I'm all for protectionist measures if they are being used to combat unfaor protectionist policy.
Uhh.....I'm NOT saying that they employ the same number of people. The "new Domestics" produce a sizable number of vehicles in North America, but GM still produces about 31% of North America's vehicle output. Through early April, GM produced 31% of all North American-built vehicles...while the "transplants" (not including Mercedes-Benz, considered part of DaimlerChrysler...which, for this argument, I'm listing as a "domestic") built just over 29% of all vehicles. That's more than Ford...but a sizable margin. Honda alone made 7.5% of all vehicles. Combine Toyota, Nissan, and Honda...and now you have the third largest manufacturer of vehicles in North America...a group who will shortly pass Ford and become number 2.

SECONDLY, I'm comparing Nissan supplying fewer parts (or entire vehicles) from other countries in order to keep their vehicles "imported." Without this waiver, Nissan would make sure its cars were NOT considered "domestics" which would mean that more parts would be sourced from other countries (keeping the US/Canadian content under the magic 75% level). GM never asked for an exemption...they just went with the lowest-cost supplier, which was in China.

"Let them go?" You haven't got a clue how much this would impact American employment. Japanese-based companies moved factories to the US, placed them in regions with high unemployment, provided excellent pay to these people, and gave them a product to be proud to make. These companies have revitalized ailing local economies. In the meantime, they have become key ingredients in the US economy. You can't just let them go...just like you couldn't let Chrysler go under (as in the early 1980s).

The Japanese have been ACCUSED of dumping for decades and only MINOR proof has been given. The last time I recall that ANYONE could prove that the Japanese illegally dumped vehicles in the US was a decade (or more) ago. And every imported vehicle DOES get a tariff. Do you wonder why there are no imported trucks? TARIFFS!
 

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This is where those scumbag auto exec suits from the last 25 years really did their damage. All those people employed by all those foreign car companies used to work for GM - Ford - Mopar. Up until those suits lost all that market share to the foreign compitition with their lazy stupidity.
 
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