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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Lack of regulatory incentives is slowing the electrification of European carmakers while Chinese EV manufacturers grow market share.



Chinese carmakers are starting to get a firm foothold on the European market, accounting for 5% of all BEVs sold so far this year. Based on current trends, they could be providing Europe with 9% to 18% of its battery electrics (BEV) in 2025, a new Transport & Environment study shows. The group warns that a failure of EU carmakers to scale up BEV supply could result in overseas companies capturing most of the mass market in Europe.

Julia Poliscanova, senior director at Transport & Environment, said: “European carmakers have slammed the brakes on their electric car offering at a time when Chinese and American carmakers are rapidly bringing new models to the market. If Europe wants to maintain the competitiveness of its car industry, the EU must introduce a strong industrial policy of its own to match the Chinese and Americans’ muscular support for EVs. The continent’s climate and jobs are at stake.”

The share of electric car sales in Europe dropped to 11% for the first half of 2022, down from 13% in the second half of last year. Growing electric vehicle sales in the United States and China suggest that a lack of regulatory incentives, not a supply chain crunch, is the main cause of Europe’s sluggish electrification efforts, says T&E.

BEV sales in China soared to nearly 18% of the new car market in the first half of 2022 while the share of EVs in the US grew 50%. In that same period the share of BEVs in Europe fell by two percentage points with Europeans facing excruciatingly long waiting times for electric models.



Julia Poliscanova added: “The absence of regulatory incentives is doing far more than the supply chain crunch to slow EV sales in Europe. The current car CO2 targets are not working. The EU must quickly lock in the 2035 phase-out of petrol and diesels and remove loopholes that weaken carmakers’ targets. It should also support measures such as low-cost leasing of electric cars to make them affordable for everyone.”

After an unprecedented drop in the average CO2 emissions from new cars in Europe following the introduction of ambitious 2020/21 CO2 standards (12% in both 2020 and 2021), EU car CO2 emissions decreased by only 2% in the first half of this year. This is because the targets are too weak, says T&E. Despite stagnating BEV sales, all but VW are on track to meet their 2022 CO2 target.



Carmakers’ own voluntary commitments would see BEVs make up over three-quarters of the car market in 2030. But if carmakers only do the minimum to meet the EU’s targets – as they have done up to now – BEV sales will be just 55%. This would see Europe miss out on 135 MtCO2 in emissions cuts over the course of the decade.

However, slowing supply and long waiting times are not the only challenge facing the European auto market. European carmakers are increasingly focusing on premium models, leaving the mass market, and with it, mass employment at risk of being dominated by overseas players. T&E recommends support for affordable electric cars in the form of low-cost leasing for electric vehicles as has been proposed in France.

T&E recommends that the EU and national governments:
  • Confirm a 100% CO2 reduction from all new cars by 2035 as proposed by the European Commission, and supported by the European Parliament and EU environment ministers.
  • Oppose any exemptions or credits for e-fuels;
  • Remove the ZLEV benchmark, that gives credits to carmakers for sales of electric cars, from 2025;
  • Electrify all new sales of corporate fleet vehicles by 2030;
  • Use EU funds and national measures to accelerate BEV production beyond minimum targets;
  • Match the kind of industrial policy recently adopted in the US, for example, by applying local sourcing and environmental requirements to tax credits and subsidies for BEVs and batteries.
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EU are strangling their own ICE car industry with their EU draconian C02 based fines legislation on ICE cars.

VW are still top heavy on labor employ 30,000 to many left over from the old ICE world, VW can't get up to speed with making EV's as efficienty as Tesla & Chinese do

Ukraine/Russia war oil & mainly gas supply it uses is running low the Germany's Government are giving gas usage priority it's German people to heat the homes over VW car production. So VW are thinking of moving its German car production to VW Eastern European countries plants that are closer to seaports where gas can be delivered shipped in.

German economy had a trade surplus of $179 billions with the rest of the world in 2020, that dropped to a trade deficit for the first time in 4 decades in July 2022. Elon Musk said it's easy to say you are going to make make 200,000 EV'a a year at a plant, an all different ball game delivering 200,000 EV' a year in practice the logistics of doing is a total nightmare like Rivian are finding out.

If VW are not careful, they might end up getting Chinese owned, the German economy I running on empty at the moment, if the Ukraine/Russian war geo-political situation carries on as long as the Afghan 20 year war the whole German auto industry might get strangled due to lack oil & gas resources will fall into Chinese ownership, as they have been buying up most of the rare earth mines around the world, and do most of the worlds processing of raw material that go into EV's.

High labor cost Germany won't be able to complete on price in the mass marketplace l think VW will struggle a lot, l think the Chinese will own the mass market in the EU.

Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz & Porsche premium brands will all be OK.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
We have had an invasion of Chinese brands set-up shop in the UK in 2022.


We have just got China's Ora's "Funky Cat" just arrived never heard of them, it much more room than a Fiat 500, better range, very well equipped and cheaper to buy under half the price of a base model Mach E.

Reviewer seem to say they the "Funky Cat" is alright, has very nice interior, the Ora logo is a bit odd!!
 

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I can see the US probably going down spying ban route same as the super fast 5g Huawei ban, the Chinese cars camera/integrated mobile wifi system is spying on us?
thankfully Huawei don’t care to spy on us, we have their 5G installed and it is fast. I have home 5G, and it is works for everybody from gaming to video streaming, and fast enough that I can use VPN almost all the time
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Strangling Europe's middle class economy has to be the goal of the politics in play, not just a result of circumstance.
Sorry l am just sounding a bit cynical here, but l think Putin will string this war out with the Ukraine like the war in Afghanistan that just ended after 20 years for as long as possible.

Sad to say our sanctions seem to be hurting Europe more than they they are hurting Russia, nobody was buying Lada's in Europe or the USA in the past, now all the European/US automakers have left Russia their car sales tanked, Kia & Hyundai have not left the market, it is recovering a little it's being back filled with Chinese made cars, and Lada have no European competition on their own soil will do better, they are off-loading Russia's blood stained oil & gas to Asia China, India, Pakistan, South Korea, Taiwan etc who will boom on cheap unwanted oil & gas, whilst places in the West like Europe that don't much in the way of natural resources are in a recession are heading for an economic depression, not a big fan of politics here but it normally ends up in a war or a once a wealthy country like Argentina ends up with constant hyperinflation & and run by despot dictators.

This war was started by Putin's insanity insecurity he did not want NATO next door on his doorstep, he went into the Ukraine on the premise thought he was on a morale high ground going to rid the world of take out 3,000 extreme right Neo-Nazi's in the Ukraine (Maybe the Ukraine should have handed them over, not a fan of the far right extremists or the looney left like Putin). Instead Putin has ended up flattening everything all parts of the Ukraine they have entered in sight, killing 14,000 civilians and lot of innocent children instead who are not far right Neo-Nazi's that l find is very very sad. Ukraine to their credit have thought back like a scoreded lion on a hot tin roof have wiped out a lot of Putin's expensive war machine with weapons, smuggled in from the west. Europe has sadly trashed thrown its economy under the Ukrainian/Russia bus with sanction rather than doing negotiations, by the end of next year Europe will be running on empty regarding reserves of fuels that power it's economy.

Don't know if anybody noticed how Saudi Arabia are getting into bed want to join the BRIC alliance Brazil-China-Russia, and the Saudi's have turned the oil tap off a bit to up the prices, whilst the West has been burning off it's oil reserves that are normally reserved for war, often wonder how we could fight a war that normally follows an economic depression. with no oil?

Don't like communism or Warmonger Putin one little bit, but have to be honest Russia debt to GDP is just 18% Europeans are on the wrong side of 100%, these sanctions seem to be shooting Europe in the foot accidentally. they seem to be hurting us more.

We need somebody like Reagan/Thatcher even if you did not like them, they bought some peace & stability with Mikhail Gorbachev negotiation rather than sanctions that seem to be hurting Europeans more, building bridges & negotiation helped bring peace German unification and Berlin Wall down, its hard to negotiate with a mad man like Putin but we should try.

Sorry about putting the world to right, there has got to be a better way, Motown's late Edwin Starr got it right, God bless him.

 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
thankfully Huawei don’t care to spy on us, we their 5G installed and it is fast. I have home 5G, and it is works for everybody from gaming to video streaming, and fast enough that I can use VPN almost all the time
5G certainly is lightning fast, China's business world & communications have a high speed massive competitive advantage over us with it, sadly will leave us behind if we don't keep up.

US is probably the only country in the world that can complete with China, has the people with the talent they have in China's industry, that's evolving at a blistering rate.

Have a very old I-phone 4 that l purchased about 11 years ago new don't use it a lot it's more of wife locator when we are out shopping or texts to friends and family arranging dates to do things that forgot to mention, sat nav on it is brilliant and play games like Sudoku do crossword or watch movies on a plane during bored moments nothing that XI Jinping would be interested into listening to all my crap, don't think he would be interest in what the average American is doing at Dunkin' Donuts to be honest, but the political elite don't want the Chinese ear-wigging on them though. We use a land line to do the lions share majority of our phone call to friends & family.
 

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Tariffs, like they do to us. What ever happened to self preservation? Did that go down the bribery hole?
 
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thankfully Huawei don’t care to spy on us....
Are you thinking they will let you know that they want to (or already do) spy on you?

Saudi Arabia, and the large chunk of the oil market they represent, are important to China, and the rest of the world. Securing that supply for themselves and hindering that supply for their opponents, certainly makes Saudi Arabia "spy worthy" for them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Are you thinking they will let you know that they want to (or already do) spy on you?

Saudi Arabia, and the large chunk of the oil market they represent, are important to China, and the rest of the world. Securing that supply for themselves and hindering that supply for their opponents, certainly makes Saudi Arabia "spy worthy" for them.
Chinese have big population l know, but l don't think they will asign one Chinaman just to watch Juche play game of thrones watch Freinds, Jerry Springer or order Big Mac or Pizza to be delivered on his home whatever, you would need 300 million Chinaman to keep the tabs on every US citizen 24/7 days a week that would be a bit extreme paranoid.

I would be more worried about people that work for the Government or Armed Forces in charge of big business owning a Chinese phone or router on a Chinese based network.

If you are someone important enough that a Chinese government would want to spy on, how you communicate is always at risk.

Regardless of phone type radio wave travels through the air for anyone to grab!

Your privacy is protected because it is encrypted. However, encryption against a guy like me who only has a PC is different from against a big Chinese government who can throw 100’s of supercomputers to launch a brute force attack on an intercepted message.
 

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... l think Putin will string this war out with the Ukraine like the war in Afghanistan that just ended after 20 years for as long as possible.
Nobody wants to string out a war as long as possible. Wars are VERY expensive (in blood and treasure). They want to win and take over their target (or come home victorious) as soon as possible. Those decades-long wars are just extended stalemates and they don't want to be the loser. Just as the Soviets and then the US in Afghanistan. (OK ... EVERYBODY that tried to control Afghanistan)
This war was started by Putin's insanity insecurity he did not want NATO next door on his doorstep, he went into the Ukraine on the premise thought he was on a morale high ground going to rid the world of take out 3,000 extreme right Neo-Nazi's in the Ukraine (Maybe the Ukraine should have handed them over, not a fan of the far right extremists or the looney left like Putin)....
I don't see why Ukraine would be handing over any Neo-Nazis to anybody else. They should deal with that problem themselves. And I would think there are WAY more Neo-Nazis in Russia, so they should deal with their own "issues". I'm sure there are more neo-Nazis than that in the US. Will Russia be invading and annexing chunks of the US trying to take them out?
...its hard to negotiate with a mad man like Putin but we should try....
We always HAVE been negotiating with Putin. Part of HIS negotiating strategy is war in Ukraine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Strangling Europe's middle class economy has to be the goal of the politics in play, not just a result of circumstance.
Is it WEF or Putin or has it exposed EU incompetence at total lack of investment in energy like nuclear power or fining VW $9 billions a year for making ICE cars based on EU CO2 fines, Saudi getting into bed with BRIC turning off the oil tap down a bit to the West, or a combination of all are trying to screw up the ordinary regular guy in Europe?

Average European was perfectly sound financially, very well off doing well before covid, now they are up to their eyeballs in debts to Government debt, owed to banks that were sitting on trillions and trillions of bad derivatives.

Personally wanted to follow the Swedish example not throw the economy under the bus locked up at home with draconian measures, watching your businesses you worked for getting burned to the ground, work safely along side covid as safely as possible, whilst protecting the elderly most vulnerable in society until the vaccines were ready.
 

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This is on sale in Saudi Arabia, full charge costs in Saudi Arabia are 2.39 US Dollar and drives 285 miles. Even here cheaper than gasoline.


What goof of a company copies an ugly Lexus grille??
 

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Hope to hell the USDM regs keep the Chinese brands out of the U.S..
nothing to see here, just a free market with no government intervention 💀 it is funny how the US demands free access for its companies to other countries' markets but the moment some nation out competes them they forget about all they preach to others

in Saudi Arabia we have an open market with no protectionism, the best player wins

Are you thinking they will let you know that they want to (or already do) spy on you?

Saudi Arabia, and the large chunk of the oil market they represent, are important to China, and the rest of the world. Securing that supply for themselves and hindering that supply for their opponents, certainly makes Saudi Arabia "spy worthy" for them.
assuming US claims of spying are true, would you rather the Finnish or Swedes spy on us? the US is nonexistent in this market.

we have no local industry to protect, make better [spying] networking hardware and we will buy it
 

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What goof of a company copies an ugly Lexus grille??
My mother has the normal ICE version of it, and it is a very very good car and the price makes it a steal. I used to be suspicious of Chinese cars before it.

So far so good, we will see if it can last as long as Japanese and Korean cars. People here buy to own and keep the cars for 10 years or more.
 

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Hope to hell the USDM regs keep the Chinese brands out of the U.S..
Doubt it, we're hell bent on politicizing EV's to the point that we will again forfeit a growing market to the Chinese all because we're afraid we'll be emasculated by driving EV's since virility is directly connected to what type of energy our cars use. I hate our politicians. We did the same thing with solar power, now the Chinese own 95% of the production capacity. WTG, 'Murica.
 

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^ For a 1/10th of a second; when there was White House blabber about how important it was to 'secure our national energy sector', I thought MMAAYYBBEE WRT to solar panels, there would be some sort of rule adopted toward that.

Stupid me; I denounced Governmental Religion decades ago - I'm deeply ashamed of that 1/10th of a second.
 

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Is it WEF or Putin or has it exposed EU incompetence at total lack of investment in energy like nuclear power or fining VW $9 billions a year for making ICE cars based on EU CO2 fines, Saudi getting into bed with BRIC turning off the oil tap down a bit to the West, or a combination of all are trying to screw up the ordinary regular guy in Europe?

Average European was perfectly sound financially, very well off doing well before covid, now they are up to their eyeballs in debts to Government debt, owed to banks that were sitting on trillions and trillions of bad derivatives.

Personally wanted to follow the Swedish example not throw the economy under the bus locked up at home with draconian measures, watching your businesses you worked for getting burned to the ground, work safely along side covid as safely as possible, whilst protecting the elderly most vulnerable in society until the vaccines were ready.
All the power players look like the bad guys. I won't be surprised if the war goes on at least to the next US presidential election.

Bankers are good for hiding moral hazard. There's a lot of people here that have lived well, and will point the finger at anyone else when the party is stopped.
 
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