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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

An electric car is capable of being totally clean if the owner so desires.
A diesel or gasoline car cannot.
 

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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

How much non-solar energy does it take to make photo-voltaic cells used in solar panels.

I guess that wind-power is cleaner than solar, including manufacturing and end-of-life energy.
Obviously there is some energy used making and disposing of them, but that's where it stops.
After that the fuel magically falls out of the sky.
 
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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

Obviously there is some energy used making and disposing of them, but that's where it stops.
After that the fuel magically falls out of the sky.
I have read somewhere that photo-voltaic cell production takes more energy than the energy they produce in a lifetime - I can't verify if that's true though - and lifetime energy production depends entirely on climatic conditions where they're installed.
 

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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

I have read somewhere that photo-voltaic cell production takes more energy than the energy they produce in a lifetime - I can't verify if that's true though - and lifetime energy production depends entirely on climatic conditions where they're installed.
That's not true. In Europe you need 1.5 - 3.5 years to compensate the energy for production (lifetime of solar cells: 20 - 40 years).

Here is a picture that shows how much space you need to replace the energy production with solar cells for the World/EU/Germany:

 

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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

What are the transmission losses on power lines getting solar energy out of the Sahara - or put another way, if that same energy were produced at point of use to reduce transmission losses, in less sunny climates, how much area would be required?
 

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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

I call BS

Perhaps funded by big oil?
 

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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

I didn't buy my volt to be green, I bought it to use less gas, so that my grandsons, hopefully don't have to go a fight war in the Middle East some day. I also pay less taxes because I use very little gas, that is .60 cents a gallon where I live. I also got the govt to foot $10500.00 of the cost of my car. So I'm getting more for less. it's also a cool car!!!
 

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That headline seems purposely misleading. If you actually read the article, it claims that electric cars are worse if powered by a coal plant at the other end. Buried further down, it says, "But if the power supply comes from natural gas, the all-electric car produces half as many air pollution health problems as gas-powered cars do. And if the power comes from wind, water or wave energy, it produces about one-quarter of the air pollution deaths."

In my state, NJ, virtually all of our electricity comes from an even split between nuclear and natural gas.

Further, the claim about electric cars being dirtier than gasoline cars when all the energy comes from coal is highly suspect. Other studies have come up with numbers that show an electric car on coal power is roughly on par with gasoline cars in terms of being "clean". Given that (as this article states) 39% of the U.S.'s electricity comes from coal, and that number is steadily dropping, it's not hard to see that EV's are already an overall plus, and will get better as the grid gets cleaner. Gasoline and diesel cars just get worse with age, and I question 2 related things: 1) are cold start emissions taken into account?; 2) a study from not too long ago in Europe suggest that diesel manufacturers "game" the test (tuning their emissions performance to match the known test procedure), and in the real world have not dropped nearly as much in pollution from diesels of a decade ago as the standards might suggest.

Finally, for any such study to be credible, it has to clearly account for the energy needed to extract and ship oil, refine to gasoline, and ship to filling stations. Estimates I've seen are that each gallon of gasoline requires 6 to 7 kW/h of energy just to refine, enough energy by itself to power a Chevy Volt about 20 miles. I seriously doubt the study in this article took any of that into account to come up with claims that contradict not only previous findings, but common sense.
 

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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

What? Is it really hard to believe that an electric car powered by coal is not really green at all?
1. We will not be burning more coal to power the increasing number of EVs
2. The EV owner has more control over powering their EV, they can install solar panels on their roof, for example.
3. EVs are more efficient. ICE has an efficiency of ~35%, EVs are more than twice as efficient.
4. Coal is only 39%, other sources are cleaner than a gas powered car.
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
5. Above all it is an investment in the future. One day gas will not be cheaply available, while there will always be a source to generate electricity.
 
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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

1. We will not be burning more coal to power the increasing number of EVs
2. The EV owner has more control over powering their EV, they can install solar panels on their roof, for example.
3. EVs are more efficient. ICE has an efficiency of ~35%, EVs are more than twice as efficient.
4. Coal is only 39%, other sources are cleaner than a gas powered car.
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
5. Above all it is an investment in the future. One day gas will not be cheaply available, while there will always be a source to generate electricity.
#1 I would assume the Coal plants WILL be re commissioned to take up the "slack" IF there is a spike in Demand for electricity
#2 a Diesel car can be run on Bio Diesel OR Fryer oil and Petrol can be converted to LPG/CNG


#3 I give you that and if you go to a "Well to Wheels" approach the NUMBER is WAY lower and the anti EV crowd "forget" that tidbit
#5 going forward having the fuel source "divorced" from the car owner it is NOT of the owners concern where/how the Fuel is derived to supply the electricity where as a ICE powered car has to worry about a replacement for Petrol/Diesel ETC if Peak oil comes true


back on point I read a study from down under RE EV cars in the Australian context with there HIGH Brown coal usage and there it was on par with Petrol for pollution
 

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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

#1 I would assume the Coal plants WILL be re commissioned to take up the "slack" IF there is a spike in Demand for electricity
#2 a Diesel car can be run on Bio Diesel OR Fryer oil and Petrol can be converted to LPG/CNG


#3 I give you that and if you go to a "Well to Wheels" approach the NUMBER is WAY lower and the anti EV crowd "forget" that tidbit
#5 going forward having the fuel source "divorced" from the car owner it is NOT of the owners concern where/how the Fuel is derived to supply the electricity where as a ICE powered car has to worry about a replacement for Petrol/Diesel ETC if Peak oil comes true


back on point I read a study from down under RE EV cars in the Australian context with there HIGH Brown coal usage and there it was on par with Petrol for pollution
#2 not if they are Euro4 or higher standard. The oil companies made sure of that. The particles are too big for the injectors if you use cooking oil, not sure about Bio diesel though.
 

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Re: Electric Cars are Nit that Green: Diesels and Gasoline fare better

BIODIESEL!

Diesel owners have the option to MAKE their own fuel, either grown (corn, soy, etc) or recycled waste oil.

Electric car owners still have to buy their electricity from some kind of power plant. Not every plant is clean.

Own your own panels? That electricity goes to the power company first. What you get back may not come from a solar source. Unless you are off grid...
 
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