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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It doesn't sound like a good review, but at least the MKS looks somewhat good. There's also a video if you care for that, too.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/d...=131286?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..2.*#2
Lincoln versus Cadillac. It's one of the oldest rivalries in the car business and it's all but dead. The 2009 Lincoln MKS proves it.

Sure, the MKS is about the same price as a Cadillac CTS, but, well, that's where the similarities end. The CTS can legitimately claim various BMWs as rivals. The MKS? It's a luxury sedan and never a sport sedan, not even a little bit.

Which is fine. Dull can be good. Dull can work. Lexus has been doing dull for years
The MKS needed Ecoboost and a weight reduction yesterday. The car is 4300 lbs....that's borderline Tahoe/Expedition weight,more than a Edge, and a touch heavier than a Flex...which is a 7 passenger vehicle.
 

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Not a great review. However, in the MKS's defense, in overall size this car is a DTS with approximately 3' chopped out of the wheelbase and 4' added to the height. The ES is sized like a CTS, however it is on a 3" shorter wheelbase. He's right about the weight though. The ES is over 300 pounds lighter than the Cadillac. What is it some of the Japanese manufacturers know the US manufacturers don't about lighter weight design? :confused:
 

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Not a great review. However, in the MKS's defense, in overall size this car is a DTS with approximately 3' chopped out of the wheelbase and 4' added to the height. The ES is sized like a CTS, however it is on a 3" shorter wheelbase. He's right about the weight though. The ES is over 300 pounds lighter than the Cadillac. What is it some of the Japanese manufacturers know the US manufacturers don't about lighter weight design? :confused:
To be honest, as an an ex Acura MDX owner....one of the most apparent ways they save weight is by using lighter gauge steel for door skins, hood, and other body panels. The structure is very sound, as they crash tested very well (mine was a 2004 model). But when you closed the door, it was tinny sounding (for a "luxury" SUV). I added Dynamat Xtreme and it helped 1000% percent with that, and also improved the sound quality of the stereo, plus decreased road noise. I must have added nearly 100 lbs! lol
 

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The MKS needed Ecoboost and a weight reduction yesterday. The car is 4300 lbs....that's borderline Tahoe/Expedition weight,more than a Edge, and a touch heavier than a Flex...which is a 7 passenger vehicle.
While I agree that the MKS is too heavy, a 2WD Tahoe is 5250 pounds. That's still way more than the MKS. The FWD MKS is about 4150, a solid 1100 pounds lighter.

And I'm irritated - but not surprised - that Edmunds downplays the space of the MKS. They compared it to the Hyundai Genesis, the Acura TL, the Cadillac CTS, and the Lexus ES350. They mention the differences in size, but only very briefly and don't seem to think it's important.

The Genesis is the only one with similar cabin space to the MKS. The rest are closer in size to the MKZ and are noticeably smaller inside than the MKS! I think it's dishonest to compare them, it's like complaining that the Buick Lucerne isn't as sporty as the 2007 Mazda6. Many people would pick the Buick anyway, because it has so much more room.
 

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Not great news for Lincoln. I wish Ford would have waited to release this with Ecoboost first. Why do they keep releasing cars (cough Five Hundred/Freestyle/Montego/Zephyr) with dated engines and then upgrade them in a year or two? Talk about guaranteeing a crappy initial review.

I think they will definitely need to offer two distinct versions. The current version is fine for the barge crowd. They need to stiffen the ride and boost the engine performance for a grand sport type trim as well.
 

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Not great news for Lincoln. I wish Ford would have waited to release this with Ecoboost first. Why do they keep releasing cars (cough Five Hundred/Freestyle/Montego/Zephyr) with dated engines and then upgrade them in a year or two? Talk about guaranteeing a crappy initial review.

I think they will definitely need to offer two distinct versions. The current version is fine to the barge crowd. They need to stiffen the ride and boost the engine performance for a grand sport type trim as well.
As far as releasing cars with dated engines, Ford is no worse than GM in this respect. Plus, it seems Ford has a cohesive strategy with their power plants. If GM has a plan I've failed to comprehend it, so far. The same with brand management and products. GM's success in the past with different brands in different in countries and "badge engineering" may be its downfall in a largely global economy.
 

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As far as releasing cars with dated engines, Ford is no worse than GM in this respect. Plus, it seems Ford has a cohesive strategy with their power plants. If GM has a plan I've failed to comprehend it, so far. The same with brand management and products. GM's success in the past with different brands in different in countries and "badge engineering" may be its downfall in a largely global economy.
Yes, if this were a Ford vs. GM world everything would be fine. Unfortunately, this a Big3 vs. The World issue. That is how they are being judged, especially with respect to the luxury nameplates.
 

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Not great news for Lincoln. I wish Ford would have waited to release this with Ecoboost first. Why do they keep releasing cars (cough Five Hundred/Freestyle/Montego/Zephyr) with dated engines and then upgrade them in a year or two? Talk about guaranteeing a crappy initial review.

I think they will definitely need to offer two distinct versions. The current version is fine for the barge crowd. They need to stiffen the ride and boost the engine performance for a grand sport type trim as well.
This is probably the 3rd review I've seen of the MKS that wasn't glowing.

The 3.7L V6 is brand new, and most reviews have indicated its refinement and power delivery is on par with any engine from BMW, MB, or Lexus.

Don't worry... the EcoBoost version will be a more buttoned-down sedan, for sure. Those who have driven it are said to be very impressed with the power, and these are folks who test GT500s and Ford GTs.
 

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As far as releasing cars with dated engines, Ford is no worse than GM in this respect. Plus, it seems Ford has a cohesive strategy with their power plants. If GM has a plan I've failed to comprehend it, so far. The same with brand management and products. GM's success in the past with different brands in different in countries and "badge engineering" may be its downfall in a largely global economy.
I disagree. GM's pushrod V6s are alive in the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Impala and some rental models and seemed to be destined to die with them. The 3.8 liter 90 degree pushrod V6 dies with the 2009 LaCrosse. Everywhere else, GM is moving to its DOHC V6 engine family and the DOHC V6 engine family is moving to direct injection.

The Ecotec 4-cylinder engine family got variable valve timing and some other updates.

Updates to the Northstar have been delayed due to cost constraints and a relatively small sales volume for V8 models even when the Northstar was competitive.

Six speed automatic transmissions are spreading all across the major products.

The small block V8 engine family is extremely competitive for power and economy and in many places combines Flex Fuel, cylinder deactivation, variable valve timing, hybrid-compatibility, of some combinations of the four.

The only oddball left in the mix is the Atlas inline engines, which are decent engines but don't fit the rest of the GM plans.

As far as product families, I don't think anyone will care that the Aura, Malibu, and 2010 LaCrosse share different version of Epsilon because they're all good cars! Same thing for the Enclave/Traverse/Outlook/Acadia - four good SUVs. Badge engineering was bad when both the Cavalier and Sunfire were bad cars, and when the Uplander, Montana, Terrazza, and Relay were bad minivans, or when the Chevy Blazer and GMC Jimmy had the highest fatality rate per occupant of any SUV sold at the time.
 

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I have never driven the MKS, but the description of the steering as limp and flabby could also apply to my MKZ- I don't think I've driven another modern car with so much slop in the steering. Sounds like they turned in a repeat performance on the MKS.

It's quite a shame, because the steering on the mainstream Ford sedans that I have driven (Fusion and Five Hundred, haven't tried the new Taurus yet but I hear it has been dumbed down from the Five Hundred) has been spot on. Lincoln needs to learn that people no longer equate loose steering with luxury.
 

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While I agree that the MKS is too heavy, a 2WD Tahoe is 5250 pounds. That's still way more than the MKS. The FWD MKS is about 4150, a solid 1100 pounds lighter.

And I'm irritated - but not surprised - that Edmunds downplays the space of the MKS. They compared it to the Hyundai Genesis, the Acura TL, the Cadillac CTS, and the Lexus ES350. They mention the differences in size, but only very briefly and don't seem to think it's important.

The Genesis is the only one with similar cabin space to the MKS. The rest are closer in size to the MKZ and are noticeably smaller inside than the MKS! I think it's dishonest to compare them, it's like complaining that the Buick Lucerne isn't as sporty as the 2007 Mazda6. Many people would pick the Buick anyway, because it has so much more room.
I agree that the comparison to the smaller cars is unfair, but the real point here is that the MKS pales in comparison to a first-time luxury effort from Hyundai which is similarly priced. It's very frustrating to see Ford basically bring back the late 90's Continental, at least in spirit (the MKS is heavier but no more powerful) while Hyundai has a world class RWD platform with state of the art motors.
 

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I agree that the comparison to the smaller cars is unfair, but the real point here is that the MKS pales in comparison to a first-time luxury effort from Hyundai which is similarly priced. It's very frustrating to see Ford basically bring back the late 90's Continental, at least in spirit (the MKS is heavier but no more powerful) while Hyundai has a world class RWD platform with state of the art motors.
That's a bleak outlook, but I do see your point. For one, the Hyundai is awfully new to call it world class yet IMHO. And those state of the art engines may not be up to full snuff......a V6 Lexus GS350 outran a V8 Genesis (0-60 and 1/4 mile).

Plus hopefully the ecoboost will be everything we keep hearing it'll be.....that should help too. I wouldn't get too discouraged by the FWD/AWD vs. RWD........American roads are chock full of Acura TSX, TL, Lexus ES350, Caddy DTS, Audis, Saabs, Volvos, Avalons, Maximas, Passats etc.
 

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I disagree. GM's pushrod V6s are alive in the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Impala and some rental models and seemed to be destined to die with them. The 3.8 liter 90 degree pushrod V6 dies with the 2009 LaCrosse. Everywhere else, GM is moving to its DOHC V6 engine family and the DOHC V6 engine family is moving to direct injection.

The Ecotec 4-cylinder engine family got variable valve timing and some other updates.

Updates to the Northstar have been delayed due to cost constraints and a relatively small sales volume for V8 models even when the Northstar was competitive.

Six speed automatic transmissions are spreading all across the major products.

The small block V8 engine family is extremely competitive for power and economy and in many places combines Flex Fuel, cylinder deactivation, variable valve timing, hybrid-compatibility, of some combinations of the four.

The only oddball left in the mix is the Atlas inline engines, which are decent engines but don't fit the rest of the GM plans.

As far as product families, I don't think anyone will care that the Aura, Malibu, and 2010 LaCrosse share different version of Epsilon because they're all good cars! Same thing for the Enclave/Traverse/Outlook/Acadia - four good SUVs. Badge engineering was bad when both the Cavalier and Sunfire were bad cars, and when the Uplander, Montana, Terrazza, and Relay were bad minivans, or when the Chevy Blazer and GMC Jimmy had the highest fatality rate per occupant of any SUV sold at the time.
From your comments it appears your examples support my conclusion not yours. It seems to me Ford has chosen the same technologies and is applying them across the board. Your example shows any number of technologies applied on a per case basis, not across the board. As to product families, brands, I find it difficult to believe there's anyone left that believes GM has anywhere near the marketing resources to support the brand structure they have in the U.S. whether the cars are good or not. Add to that all the brands they support outside the U.S. It appears even GM realizes this, if China is any indication, three brands Chevy, Buick and Cadillac.
 

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Keep in mind that consumers don't buy cars based on skidpads and slolem courses, nor do they read or care about these reviews. They respond to the car itself which has to meet customer expectations as soon as they get inside. The car also has to establish long-term customer satisfaction. Rarely do critics consider the customer when they review cars, they only care about how much fun they have with in during their short stint with the car.

And yes, Edmunds is idiotic for comparing the MKS to all the vehicles they did, which illustrates that they don't even understand the product they just reviewed. Comparing the CTS to the MKS is like comparing the Malibu to the Taurus. They should have pointed out that very few cars are actually represented in the MKS segment! And the only Caddy that is similar to the MKS is the DTS, which is very old and not even available with most of the MKS features, such as AWD or a 6-spd transmission!
 

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Keep in mind that consumers don't buy cars based on skidpads and slolem courses, nor do they read or care about these reviews. They respond to the car itself which has to meet customer expectations as soon as they get inside. The car also has to establish long-term customer satisfaction. Rarely do critics consider the customer when they review cars, they only care about how much fun they have with in during their short stint with the car.

And yes, Edmunds is idiotic for comparing the MKS to all the vehicles they did, which illustrates that they don't even understand the product they just reviewed. Comparing the CTS to the MKS is like comparing the Malibu to the Taurus. They should have pointed out that very few cars are actually represented in the MKS segment! And the only Caddy that is similar to the MKS is the DTS, which is very old and not even available with most of the MKS features, such as AWD or a 6-spd transmission!
The Lincoln MKS confuses journalists, because most don't understand it.

For the thousands of Lincoln owners trading out of Continentals, Town Cars, and LS's, this is revelation of what a Lincoln can be.

This Lincoln is quiet, smooth, refined, with lots of technology features standard AND available, has AWD for the winter, looks pretty good, and is very comfortable. That covers all the bases for most people.

The Lincoln built for auto rags and blogs is coming out early next year.
 

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to be fair the MKS is a decent luxury car. Sure it may be lacking in horsepower but this initial model is for folks that want luxury, refinement, and other goodies but really don't care about performance numbers. I do like the technology that is in it and its a great replacement for the Town car. But I can't wait to see the numbers for a ecoboost equipped model
 

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The Genesis is the only one with similar cabin space to the MKS. The rest are closer in size to the MKZ and are noticeably smaller inside than the MKS! I think it's dishonest to compare them...
Yes, more dishonest, incompetent "journalism!" Size, price, and functionality are all important. Yes, there are some potential buyers who might consider both the mdeium sized cars (CTS, MKZ, ES350, Etc.) and the large sized cars (Genesis, MKS, DTS), but a quality review would compare the MKS to other cars roughly the same size, price, and functionality.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
^^^ They did. They mentioned that the Genesis is the closest competitor in terms of size and price.
 

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So they complained that an AWD model with a ginormous glass roof weighs too much.
Who cares about a little weight in a luxury car, especially if it makes it smoother, quieter and safer.
 
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