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I didn't know I was one of them until my son was looking for his first car. We were in almost everything, using elimination. The Camaro was terrible. I HATE that sitting on the floor with tiny windows at shoulders................ so yes, claustrophobic. I like light in my vehicles. Other than summer, my BAMR roof shade is always open........... for the light. So, the Camaro was terrible, and the Mustang was slightly better. Liked the look much more, and probably could live with it, but HATED the distortion of the heavy sloped rear window. The Camaro had that problem also, but I was more busy trying to figure out if I was in an accident, if they had airbags in the top of the doors.................. to cushion my head. I'm not short for a woman either (I'm 5'7"), but I'm all legs.

At the end of the day, part of the reason Corey went with the S3 was due to greenhouse, outward vision, and great interior. It made fun driving more fun. He is 6ft, but has long legs also.

As for getting used to the vision, the thing that the powers that be forget about, is that you have to get someone to get in the car and drive it first.............. before they can get used to it. Short of Camaro diehards, a lot of people I know looked at one, said "nahhh, transformer," and moved on.
I thought the same with the Mustang - same "tub" feeling but not quite as bad. I've never felt like that in a Corvette or other even sportier cars. GM gave up to much practicality for looks - nailed it for their existing target audience but forgot to leave room to bring in new customers.
 

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And that sitting in a tub experience, I suspect, has chased a lot of customers away. I myself like the looks of a Camaro, but will never buy one because I feel uncomfortable with such high sills. I know GM was aware the Zeta Camaro owners loved that, but I think GM took that to heart instead of asking why other people didn't buy the Zeta Camaro - I have the same complaint about the Zeta - loved the looks, hated the seating experience.
That has been the main issue with me - the cowl or 'sill' as you put it. It doesn't give the impression of performance even though the function is there. Yes, the Challenger has a bit of sill also, but it somehow maintains it's sleekness. The 'tub' feeling is spot on.

In my view, the sales have hurt because the styling is other-worldly - Chevy added too many creases and angles to the body to suit my tastes. The Gen 5 had less. I guess I'm just too much of a 1st gen fan/owner to look at another gen except for a Gen 3 which I also own.
 

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I thought the same with the Mustang - same "tub" feeling but not quite as bad. I've never felt like that in a Corvette or other even sportier cars. GM gave up to much practicality for looks - nailed it for their existing target audience but forgot to leave room to bring in new customers.
My Mustang is comfortable, but I had to really tune the ergonomics or commutes would seriously mess up my body alignment. Visibility is surprisingly great, better than that of the wife's Escape. I will see how I fare on a 6-7 hour drive.
 

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I didn't know I was one of them until my son was looking for his first car. We were in almost everything, using elimination. The Camaro was terrible. I HATE that sitting on the floor with tiny windows at shoulders................ so yes, claustrophobic. I like light in my vehicles. Other than summer, my BAMR roof shade is always open........... for the light. So, the Camaro was terrible, and the Mustang was slightly better. Liked the look much more, and probably could live with it, but HATED the distortion of the heavy sloped rear window. The Camaro had that problem also, but I was more busy trying to figure out if I was in an accident, if they had airbags in the top of the doors.................. to cushion my head. I'm not short for a woman either (I'm 5'7"), but I'm all legs.

At the end of the day, part of the reason Corey went with the S3 was due to greenhouse, outward vision, and great interior. It made fun driving more fun. He is 6ft, but has long legs also.

As for getting used to the vision, the thing that the powers that be forget about, is that you have to get someone to get in the car and drive it first.............. before they can get used to it. Short of Camaro diehards, a lot of people I know looked at one, said "nahhh, transformer," and moved on.
I thought the same with the Mustang - same "tub" feeling but not quite as bad. I've never felt like that in a Corvette or other even sportier cars. GM gave up to much practicality for looks - nailed it for their existing target audience but forgot to leave room to bring in new customers.
That was exactly how I felt when I checked one out a while ago, think it was when my dad was getting his ZR2. It does feel claustrophobic to one who prefers more open and airy spaces in their interior -even in say a compact car- and I had issues with ingress/egress and the seemingly high lower sill and low roofline and also seat level(my bad back). Nice car and all but it's not for me. My brothers' Challenger didn't pose near the problems/issues with me :).
 

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The 6th gen Camaro is so fast and handles so well, yet is a disappointment to me and apparently also the buying public at large.

Ed Welburn so completely dropped the ball on the car's styling and what it is supposed to be, it's almost impossible to consider it a mere mistake. I sometimes wonder if he was some sort of Manchurian Candidate planted into GM Design. Half kidding, but not really.

I knew the 6th gen would struggle the very moment I laid eyes on it. I just didn't imagine how badly.
 

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Without having read the entire thread, here's my take.
The Camaro, while being a superb performer, still continues to look like a cartoon of itself. It's got tiny pillbox slits to look out of. Even the newer ones.
The Challenger? I had a 2009. I sold it in 2012 (for down-payment money for a house). I still miss it.
I never felt like I was sitting in a pillbox.
 

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I thought the same with the Mustang - same "tub" feeling but not quite as bad. I've never felt like that in a Corvette or other even sportier cars. GM gave up to much practicality for looks - nailed it for their existing target audience but forgot to leave room to bring in new customers.

I think they actually lost a lot of the existing Camaro audience with the 6th gen design. I'm one of them. The target audience for that high beltline look seems to be Ed Welburn and his sucessors who, even in the face of disastrous sales, stick to their guns and say they wouldn't change a thing.

The 2nd-4th gen cars didn't have that look. Maybe you could say there was an element of the high beltline in the 1st gen, which Ed Welburn seems to have thought was the pinnacle of automotive design.

The 5th gen launched in 2009. It had a high beltline and some of that "tub" feeling as well. But it had been eight years since the prior Camaro and that car benefitted from a lot of pent-up demand. Chevy's design staff interpreted the good sales of the 5th gen as this mass love for the high-beltline look. They were wrong. I bought my 5th gen in spite of that look. And it wasn't like I didn't like car; if not for a deer collision in 2012, I might have still had it. I did really like it. Athough in my mind, with its high weight and less than nimble handling, the 5th gen Camaro always seemed like a cross between a Camaro and a Monte Carlo. But it was an easy car to live with and, yes, you could see out of the car just fine. But like others have pointed out, it wasn't easy to drive with your arm laying on the window ledge, which I like to do. Your arm had to sit uncomfortably high (I'm just a little over average height at 5'11") to drive like that.

The 5th gen sales were decent, but I think all that Chevy cared about was outselling the Mustang, which it did for a while. But really, the numbers were nothing special, especially when you consider that eight years of pent-up demand. It sold okay, but for an all-new Camaro and the first one in eight years, I'd have expected higher sales. I always thought the sales numbers were a bit disappointing, whether it beat the Mustang or not. But that's all that Chevy cared about. "We outsold the Mustang by a few thousand! We won!" They should have taken a hard look at those numbers and realized that they could have done better.
 

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Just a reminder that the 2010 Camaro only survived the great recession because it was essentially already completed for market. The shortened Zeta chassis was fraught with compromise and far too heavy for a "pony" car. Yet it sold well on styling and pent up demand.

It also was the first vehicle in NA to receive a 5 star frontal crash rating. I used all 5 stars!!
64090
 

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Just a reminder that the 2010 Camaro only survived the great recession because it was essentially already completed for market. The shortened Zeta chassis was fraught with compromise and far too heavy for a "pony" car. Yet it sold well on styling and pent up demand.

It also was the first vehicle in NA to receive a 5 star frontal crash rating. I used all 5 stars!! View attachment 64090

II was impressed with mine. A deer hopped the fence on I-79 and came down right in front of my car (I was lucky it didn't land on the hood. Or through the windshield.). The car was over three years old at that point and I was surprised it wasn't totaled. The damage came to about $13,500. It took three months to repair, as the dealer kept finding other little things wrong. A month into that, I actually traded the car in to another dealer while it was still in pieces and picked up a two-year old CTS Coupe coming off lease with just 10K miles on it. I always wondered how well my old Camaro ended up after the repairs were finally complete.
 

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I think they actually lost a lot of the existing Camaro audience with the 6th gen design. I'm one of them. The target audience for that high beltline look seems to be Ed Welburn and his sucessors who, even in the face of disastrous sales, stick to their guns and say they wouldn't change a thing.

The 2nd-4th gen cars didn't have that look. Maybe you could say there was an element of the high beltline in the 1st gen, which Ed Welburn seems to have thought was the pinnacle of automotive design.

The 5th gen launched in 2009. It had a high beltline and some of that "tub" feeling as well. But it had been eight years since the prior Camaro and that car benefitted from a lot of pent-up demand. Chevy's design staff interpreted the good sales of the 5th gen as this mass love for the high-beltline look. They were wrong. I bought my 5th gen in spite of that look. And it wasn't like I didn't like car; if not for a deer collision in 2012, I might have still had it. I did really like it. Athough in my mind, with its high weight and less than nimble handling, the 5th gen Camaro always seemed like a cross between a Camaro and a Monte Carlo. But it was an easy car to live with and, yes, you could see out of the car just fine. But like others have pointed out, it wasn't easy to drive with your arm laying on the window ledge, which I like to do. Your arm had to sit uncomfortably high (I'm just a little over average height at 5'11") to drive like that.

The 5th gen sales were decent, but I think all that Chevy cared about was outselling the Mustang, which it did for a while. But really, the numbers were nothing special, especially when you consider that eight years of pent-up demand. It sold okay, but for an all-new Camaro and the first one in eight years, I'd have expected higher sales. I always thought the sales numbers were a bit disappointing, whether it beat the Mustang or not. But that's all that Chevy cared about. "We outsold the Mustang by a few thousand! We won!" They should have taken a hard look at those numbers and realized that they could have done better.
I think the current gen Camaro looks really good, one of my favorite iterations of the Camaro. I find the last gen Camaro to look bulky and bland next to it. Yet clearly I'm in the minority - funny how we see different things with our eyes.

And I have no doubts you are right - I bet there are circumstances that led to the appearance of people accepting the high beltline. Though, again, seems to be some people that don't have an issue with it. If GM focused on that group to much, which I clearly remember an article quoting someone from GM that did specifically say their buyers DO like the high beltline, then that led them to pleasing to small of a slice of potential buyers.

I do wonder how many potential pony car buyers were siphoned off by German makes (M2, M3, etc) and even the Cadillac V's. I know the price is higher, but realistically not crazy higher if you don't check all of the boxes.
 

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My take, Camaro sales fell off because they (GM) thought that they can increase prices on the V8 models into the 40s and pass of the V6 RS as a substitute to the affordable V8...they were wrong. LT1 trim came a little too late to fix the expensive V8 problem. By that point all of the sales migrated over to the Challenger (low 30s for a 5.7) and 'Stang (mid 30s for a 5.0) and have stayed there.

And I think of the Challengers success this way through the eyes of a young single man, you mess around and get someone knocked up...you don't have to trade it in for a sedan or crossover. Try loading a child seat into the back of a Camaro or Mustang.
 

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And I think of the Challengers success this way through the eyes of a young single man, you mess around and get someone knocked up...you don't have to trade it in for a sedan or crossover. Try loading a child seat into the back of a Camaro or Mustang.
There was famous baseball player/media personality named Joe Garigiola, who did a TV spot in the 70's for either the Charger or Challenger, where he showed a man and his wife why the car was both sporty and practical.
 

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But they are.
If you're talking about 5th vs. 6th gen, most people think they are the same, though in reality completely different cars. A mild refresh. I don't dislike the 6th gen at all. I owned a 5th gen. But I think making them look so similar was the single biggest mistake.
 

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If you're talking about 5th vs. 6th gen, most people think they are the same, though in reality completely different cars. A mild refresh. I don't dislike the 6th gen at all. I owned a 5th gen. But I think making them look so similar was the single biggest mistake.
Yes in reality they are completely different,but they look so much the same,but they don't,but they do.
 

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I think the current gen Camaro looks really good, one of my favorite iterations of the Camaro. I find the last gen Camaro to look bulky and bland next to it. Yet clearly I'm in the minority - funny how we see different things with our eyes.

And I have no doubts you are right - I bet there are circumstances that led to the appearance of people accepting the high beltline. Though, again, seems to be some people that don't have an issue with it. If GM focused on that group to much, which I clearly remember an article quoting someone from GM that did specifically say their buyers DO like the high beltline, then that led them to pleasing to small of a slice of potential buyers.

I do wonder how many potential pony car buyers were siphoned off by German makes (M2, M3, etc) and even the Cadillac V's. I know the price is higher, but realistically not crazy higher if you don't check all of the boxes.
Funny but I'm just the opposite sort of. I find the first generation sort of plain and simple looking compared to what came later and the current one better than the other two. The high belt line issue is what makes me feel like it has a Hot Wheels toy car look to it.
 

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Dodge Sold Over 5 Times As Many Challengers As Chevy Did Camaros In 2021 Q2!
BY BRAD ANDERSON | POSTED ON JULY 6, 2021

Some say the Dodge Challenger is aging like fine wine, others that it’s way past its prime time, but whichever side you stand on, you can’t deny that muscle car enthusiasts continue to buy it in their droves, so much so that it actually outsold the newer Ford Mustang and Chevrolet Camaro in the second quarter.

In Q2 2021, a grand total of 15,052 Challengers were sold across the United States posting an increase of 52.3% over the same period in 2020, according to data from Autonews. Ford delivered a total of 14,676 Mustangs in the second quarter of 2021, down 6.6% compared to last year, while the Camaro lagged well behind its competition selling only a fraction at just 2,792 examples during April, May, and June 2021, recording a 58.2% drop over last year.

Mustang still ahead in overall 2021 sales

The Mustang continues to outsell the Challenger and Camaro when you factor in Q1 to the equation, with 31,950 units delivered during the first six months of the year (-5.4%). By comparison, Dodge has delivered 30,148 Challengers in the first half of 2021 (up 36.9% over 2020) while Chevrolet has sold just 9,881 Camaros (-28.7% at 13,860 units in 2020 H1).

While demand for the Challenger has remained remarkably strong as the car has aged, thanks largely to the launch of various new, high-powered models, it’s worth noting that sales and deliveries of the Mustang have been hit hard this year due to difficulties the automaker is facing in overcoming the microchip shortage. In addition, production of the Camaro has been halted on a number of occasions throughout the shortage.

Nevertheless, GM executives won’t be pleased to see sales of the Camaro falling off a cliff like this. Production of the 2022 model is expected to start in September but it has undergone very few changes over the 2021 model so it remains to be seen whether it’ll manage to generate any renewed interest in the car.



GM executives always seem pleased to kill their best and brightest programs. Witness the SS Sedan, and Impalas. The car magazines actually liked this stuff. But for some reason, Mz. Barra et al, seem quite pleased not to push for lasting success in these segments. So, it's either going to be massive SUVs, miniscule EVs, or exotic sports cars. To hell with the middle class having fun, with a bowtie badged sedan or coupe. In the meantime, the rest of the auto manufacturing world makes trillions off the segments GM ignores, with inferior products.
 

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Funny but I'm just the opposite sort of. I find the first generation sort of plain and simple looking compared to what came later and the current one better than the other two. The high belt line issue is what makes me feel like it has a Hot Wheels toy car look to it.
the Gen 5 was huge...too cartoonish, for all of it's handling abilities it just didn't feel like it was capable of that due to its mass. The gen 6 felt like a gen 5 that went to the gym and got trimmed up in all the right places. It even looks a lot better than the gen 5 save the 2019 debacle. Price on the SS (more of an issue) and practicality doomed it
 

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Yes in reality they are completely different,but they look so much the same,but they don't,but they do.

Not sure exactly what you mean, if you think they look very similar or not. Mocking or serious?

I'm not alone in thinking that the 5th and 6th gen cars look very similar, and I'm not exactly a casual observer. Someone I'm sure will trot out the, "Gee, you must really needs glasses" tripe. But when the 6th gen came out, I often mistook it at a glance for a 5th, and visa versa. Other people have said the same. If people can't instantly tell that it's an all-new car (which of course under the skin it is), then that is a design failure. Period.
 

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GM executives always seem pleased to kill their best and brightest programs. Witness the SS Sedan, and Impalas. The car magazines actually liked this stuff. But for some reason, Mz. Barra et al, seem quite pleased not to push for lasting success in these segments. So, it's either going to be massive SUVs, miniscule EVs, or exotic sports cars. To hell with the middle class having fun, with a bowtie badged sedan or coupe. In the meantime, the rest of the auto manufacturing world makes trillions off the segments GM ignores, with inferior products.

The Impala was a terrific car. Anyone who wanted a full-size family hauling car really couldn't make a better choice. But people just don't want them. I really don't know what GM could have done here.

The SS was a tremendous performance sedan. And no one knew about it. GM really just didn't seem to care. Maybe it was like the GTO and G8, where I think it's is said that the exchange rate between US and Australian dollars doomed the car to lose money. It's a shame. The SS could have been more visually interesting, but some sort of advertising at just how good that car was might have helped. A better name (Chevelle?) might have helped too.
 
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