[AJR]

I was afraid this was going to happen. America's last two car companies were so sure they would gain market share this year, that they could almost taste it. It really makes me question the people in charge. Do they think they will capture market share just because they said they would?

I think the long run of incentives and other "come buy our vehicle" gimmicks has run its course. I see GM's new marketing incentives as desperation. GM seems to be so focused on the deal of the month that it doesn't spend the time to work on its products. However, the problem is that GM needs these incentives to get it to the time when the hot products do come out. But, these incentives, I think, throw a negative perception on GM's vehicles. It cheapens them in the long run.

How Toyota is able to gain is beyond me, but it shows that Toyota is hitting the right targets and doing the things that are needed to increase sales month after month. It also doesn't hurt that Toyota's long term scores in J.D. Power surveys have been great year after year. Just think of how many English speaking papers carried those scores. It just enforces the thought in the mainstream that Toyota is still the best choice when buying a car. I really can't answer how Toyota is able to do it month after month, but just wait until the new Lexus and Toyota hybrid SUVs are out. GM does not have an answer. And then, look at the new Sienna minivan that is growing by leaps and bounds. GM is going to combat it with the CSVs (or whatever)?

As for Kia, I think its sales are growing due to its Sedona minivan and Sorrento SUV. The Sedona minivan is one of the cheapest minvans on the market. GM has no answer for it, and doesn't seem to care either. I also think Kia has profitted from the low entry level market. There are several people I know that don't have much money, but still want a new car. A Kia or Hyundai can still be had cheaper than most GM products. The Cavalier/Sunfire are not on the radar screen.

I also think many Americans no longer care or think about GM anymore. There are so many choices out there, that people don't want to put up with a mediocre product anymore. I feel GM is getting better, but the styling and interiors are still sticking points for me. Here is the world's largest car company, yet it sometimes offers vehicles that are behind. That is unacceptable. I still think GM is unconnected to the American public. Somehow, some way, GM does not have the attention of the American public like it did in the 50s and 60s when it could do no wrong. GM needs to find that magic. I get the impression that GM is happy to put out a 95% vehicle. In this day and age, GM has to put out 110% in every single product it does so people can look at it. It doesn't help when you have little Chrysler Group outworking GM at every corner. That doesn't help GM either.

I hope GM (and Ford) can get their acts together because what they are doing is not working. They are not winning over the American public. I think Lutz needs to shut his mouth and just build great cars and trucks at GM. He is beginning to sound too similiar to Iacocca and his "Buy America" tirade of the late 80s. Toyota doesn't talk - it listens and it is listening to the American people. Did GM listen to all you Camaro/Firebird fans out there? No! What about a new, much improved minivan? No! Lutz knows better, but I get this feeling he is just so casual about things. The same thing about Ford. These two need to be become agressive, listen to the American public, and start quietly building great cars instead of bragging about it and underdelivering. They need to take market share now, though great products, instead of watching the competition eat them up.

I don't mean to rip on GM, but I have this feeling somebody somewhere needs to light a fire under its butt.

 

[AJR]

BTW- I love the resale value arguement these people like to make. When all else fails, point out that your boring Toyota is going to be worth a grand more after 5 years. Is that before or after you get raped on replacing things like timing belts and $120 headlight lenses? You wind up paying for that inflated resale value in other ways. The reality is, you paid more for the car in the first place, and it ought to be worth more than a less expensive car that was heavily incentive-laden when new. It's simple math.

I can't respond to the $120 headlight issues or timing belt replacements for Toyotas, but I have come to the realiziation that having a good resale value is a good thing to have. Do you have any idea what it is like trying to sell or trade a late 80s model Chrysler product? I'm sure a GM or Ford product will be a little better, but if I am going to buy a new car, I want to buy one that allows a good trade in when the time comes. Of course I have to like the style, performance, and quality of the car, but I also want to have good leverage when I do get to change. I'm out of Chrysler products, and have given Ford a chance with the Mustang. I will see what kind of trade in value we get with a GM vehicle when the time comes for my brother to trade in his 2001 Grand Perix coupe.

The difference is, your Toyota will still be boring after 5 years.

That is your opinion. Many people still buy Toyota and don't really care how boring it is to people. They like it. Not everybody cares about having a sports sedan or muscle car.

 

[AJR]

I noticed that the author ignored new products from Japanese manufacturers like the Nissan Quest, the Armada, and the Titan. All bombs in the marketplace. Ignored are the collection of forgettable creatures from Scion. All bombs.

How do you know these vehicles are bombs? The thing to remember is that Nissan and Toyota had sales increases not only in June, but over the last 10-12 consecutive months even with these vehicles falling behind projections. Just think where these companies would be if these products were red hot!

I can't call Scion a bomb. It was just launched to most of the United States in June. Reports are that Scion's success in California even surprised Toyota. It was better than people thought it would be. Personally, I can't stand the Scion Xb and can barely stomach the Xa. However, the Scion tC has a chance of making Scion a legit car divison to the mainstream youths. The Japanese usually don't expect a burst of sales success right off the bat. As long as it hits sales goals, then they are happy. They look for growing long term sales momentum. Toyota did the same thing with Lexus when people wrote it off before it was launched. Now, those same people know better than to right off any Toyota idea - whether it is Scion or something else. Toyota has a way of getting the job done when it has to.

The Nissan Titan is the one to watch. I don't think much of the Quest or Armada, but I think the Titan will spell trouble for Detroit several years down the road. Its impact may not be sales, but rather what it forces Toyota to do with its next Tundra. Toyota will learn form Nissan's mistakes and make an ever better truck. It may not sell as much as the Dodge Ram, but continuous improvement and gradual sales success are what these companies are looking for. They will get at it piece by piece.

And I just want to say that I am not some Toyota or Nissan loyalist on this site. I used to be very pro-domestic in the late 80s and througout the 90s. As I see Toyota, Honda, and Nissan continue to grow month after month, year after year, I asked myself why this keeps happening. My thought is that the Japanese outsmart are Detroit companies. By the time it takes Detroit to catch the Japanese in quality, the Japanese will have a big start on hybrid technology, and other future technologies. The Japanese usually do not like to put out a half hearted effort, unlike GM and Ford's minivans. They are very humble and not very outspoken like Detroit leaders. They let their results talk for them. That is something I think Lutz and the other GM officials need to learn.

I would like to see Detroit come back, but my desire is just about dead. Waiting for Detroit to get is act together for at least 15 years does get tiring.

 

[AJR]

tgagneguam,

I can see you have been wrestling with these issues as well. These issues are very complex as you said. I have tried to understand why Detroit continues to lose ground. Maybe I've become more pessimistic ever since Daimler came in and ate up Chrysler. That moment demonstrated to me that Detroit is not the strong auto industry people want to believe it is. If our industry was so strong, why would we welcome a purchase of one of our glorious Big 3 companies? It is almost like people welcomed it and just threw their hands up in the air and said "do whatever you can to save us. We are at the end of our rope." I get this feeling that Detroit is at the point of just basic survival. That is why Oldsmobile and Plymouth are gone (although it should have been Saturn that left). I view the American auto industry in a downward spiral, and I don't know what will stop it. The imports have had such a big lead for so long, and have become a staple of our culture that they have become "family".

We were in business when the imports were starting to show some gains in the 80s. At the time, I wondered like you guys why this is happening because I did not think the Japanese had anything to talk about. They were the enemy and most people at that time were very loyal to American brands. When Toyota launched Lexus in 1989, I think things changed. They were the ones to take on the Germans when Detroit kept pumping out cars like the Chrysler Imperial, Cadillac Allante, and Lincoln Continental. These cars were suppose to be the best America had, and yet a little Japanese company known for making fuel efficient cars came right out and smacked the living daylights out of the Europeans. How were they able to do it, when we could not? I think it has to do with the mindset of the Japanese that building half-hearted efforts is embarrassing and disrespectful to the customers and employees. They had to prove they were worthy to the American people. America saw this effort and quickly realized that Toyota was a legitamate world car company. The effort was there from day 1 unlike Detroit's "we'll improve" mindset that we hear decade after decade.

This leads us to the incentive deals. Yes, GM is in a catch 22. It is building good vehicles, but it has to get people into the showrooms. However, is an incentive needed? Why couldn't GM wow the public with surprisingly beautiful cars and trucks? Chrysler went from the K-car king in the 80s into the hottest car company in the 90s with some hot (even outrageous) designed cars and trucks. Chrysler took a chance with styling and overwhelmed the world. The quality was terrible, but for a while Chrysler set the world on its head. That is the kind of stuff people keep asking from GM. When I visit import websites, there usually is a post about GM increasing its incentives. Naturally, GM is the joke of the forum because they see that GM has to pretty much hand out cars to people. The world's largest car company can do better than that. Get more cars out there that are truly inspired, and incentives may not be needed. Ford is trying it so we'll see if it works. Good cars that people want is what GM should be aiming for. However, the incentives are what GM needs to get through the tough times.

I see what you saying, but I still believe GM has to be smarter, more passionate, and work harder to keep market share. I'm not quite convinced yet.

 

[AJR]

Originally posted by vanshmack+Jul 4 2004, 05:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (vanshmack @ Jul 4 2004, 05:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-AJR@Jul 3 2004, 09:58 PM

That is your opinion.  Many people still buy Toyota and don't really care how boring it is to people.  They like it.  Not everybody cares about having a sports sedan or muscle car.

It looks like we agree!

Boring does not enter into the equation for the typical Toyota buyer. They don't view cars as boring or exciting...only as transportation to get from point A to point B in relative comfort.

You are absolutely right, AJR, not everybody wants a sport sedan or a muscle car. Those are the people who buy Toyotas! [/b][/quote]
We agree, but I should have been more careful with the word boring. To me the Camry is boring, but somewhat attractive. The Malibu, on the other hand, is just boring. The drawings of the Malibu showed such promise, but the end result is a disappointment in the exterior styling to me. The interior does not inspire me either. What I think the Camry has going for it is its "quality" reputation, and its luxury like content. The cheap Camrys are cheap, but the upscale versions look like an affordable Lexus.

When I went to this year's St. Louis Auto Show, I got to sit in a Malibu and Camry. The solid grey interior on the Malibu just brought my whole day down. I could see that it was well put together, but the all grey, no matter how well put together, was so drab. I think it even had grey leather interior.

The Camrys I looked at differed. The base model Camry looked cheap and old. It had a grey interior, but wasn't all grey. The seats were cheap grey cloth and it seemed more like a car for rental company. Nothing to get excited about. The top model on the other hand was very nice - almost too nice for a family sedan. It had nice grey leather with wood trim and chrome accents. It even had an open sunroof that made the car seem more upscale and more open. The Malibu, I don't think, had that option. In any case, the Camry (and most Japanese cars) seem to have a more open ****pit than American cars.

That may sound boring to some, but I think there a lot more people are looking for a relaxing drive home than for a sports sedan. Maybe that explains the allure of the Camry. Our world is so fast, so demanding, that by the time we enter our car, we just want to turn the key and glide effortlessly home. Even though I have a Mustang Mach 1, I yearn for that relaxing, comfortable drive home sometimes where I do not need to one-up somebody.

 

[AJR]

How does Honda and Toyota keep on going? Your guess is as good as mine. I think a larger portion of the American consumer base is fed up and tired with Detroit and want an alternative.

Honda and Toyota are both seeing growth from their minivans. GM and Ford haven't because they never took their offering as seriously as these 2 companies. The new Sienna came out late last year and has seen large increases over the previous Sienna. Honda has had what some people consider the best minivan on the market in the Odyssey. It has been on the market for a long time so it would seem old to most people. However, since the NEW Odyssey is COMING OUT THIS FALL, Honda has decided to offer incentives on the remaining 04 models. That could explain why Odyssey sales are up this month.

I use the minivan comparision because this just shows how far GM and Ford are out of touch with the marketplace. A few years ago, hardly anybody even thought about the Toyota Sienna. I think there was just as much buzz over the Chevy Venture as there was for the older Sienna. Toyota was not much of a player in the minivan market. However, playing second to Honda was not acceptable to Toyota, and it released the current Sienna. Some consider this minivan to be the best on the market right now. How did Toyota go from being an afterthat in the minivan market to one of the hottest sellers in this segment? Why couldn't GM and Ford release a much stronger minivan while Toyota sold a forgettable Sienna and Honda sold an old Odyssey? The opportunity was there for these two to leapfrog the competition, but they never put out the effort.

I think America is tired of waiting for Detroit to get its act together, so they go and buy a Honda, Toyota, or Nissan. If the experience is good, it becomes even harder to convince them to leave.

That is my guess.

 

[AJR]

Originally posted by yoblues@Jul 5 2004, 02:53 PM
GM (and the other two) began this nosedive car wise 30 years ago. First GM lost the people like me, former GM buyers (one generation) and then the (second generation) that has grown up with Japaneese cars.  Most people buy things (cars) that they are familliar with and have proven their reliability.  If your going to get people to change you must  go one better than your rival. Gm has not gone one better it is just barely catching up. I have come to the conclusion it may never really catch up. WHY? For the same reason the U.S. Government barely works. It got so BIG it has become unmanageable. I said this before.  Toyota has two main divisions (I don't think Scion will be around very long) Honda has two main divisions. They sell these two divisions worldwide.  GM has 5 car and 2 truck divisions in the U.S. alone and then you get to it's overseas companies and partnerships.  ADVANTAGE: Toyota/Honda      They use their engineering and design talent on two lines. The management chain of command for two lines is far smaller than GM's. They build the same cars in their overseas factories. They are just leaner meaner companies.  Face facts. the big two (the third one is now a German company) are in trouble, if the truck/suv market ever gets wobbily they are in serious trouble.

Yoblues,

I think you are right about everything you wrote, except I don't think Scion will be leaving anytime soon. Ending Scion would be a major PR blunder to the "invinceable" Toyota Corporation. Toyota is committed to Scion for the long run. Little by little, Toyota is gaining market share. Part of the plan is for Scion to hit a part of the market that Toyota cannot hit.

I do agree about the rest of your post. I don't have an answer, but I have a feeling the change would have to come from us Americans changing our mindset - "bigger is better". Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are riding a wave of momentum now and I don't see it breaking any time soon. Plus, these 3 are getting American workers -college graduates, ex-Detroit auto workers, etc... that are just completely fed up. They see Nissan, Toyota, and Honda as having fresh ideas and more flexibility. It is kind of like a fresh, new beginning. I think many people still view Detroit as old, slow moving, and not really in touch with society. It is a perception battle, one I'm not sure Detroit has dented too much.

the big two (the third one is now a German company) are in trouble, if the truck/suv market ever gets wobbily they are in serious trouble.

This statement should be highlighted in every domestic website and "Buy American" supported website.

 

[AJR]

awalbert88,

That is the most frustrating thing about the J.D. Power quality scores. The brands you listed are all starting to get a good quality reputation after fighting for decades to catch the imports, but all of them, except Cadillac, are not building the kinds of vehicles people want. That is what is most frustrating. Now is the time to show the quality gains by introducing fresh, new vehicles that wow the automotive public. The high quality gains would just be icing on the cake.

I remember back in 1990 or 1991 that Automotive News had a big feature on the front page about Buick being the first domestic brand to show quality gains right along with the imports. It was great news of joy. Since then, Buick has gotten a great reputation for building cars that last long and are high on quality. However, Buick sales are decreasing because it is not building the kinds of cars people want. Cadillac is starting to look like a smart buy in terms of quality, engineering, and status. It is still missing little things that can put it over the top, but it is becoming a known quality brand, with fresh, new products. Buick and Lincoln need that as well to keep up the momentum because these quality gains are heaven for a PR department. High quality scores combined with "gotta have" products is a great combination.

Having said that, I would still buy a Honda or Acura before I'd buy a Buick or Lincoln (upcoming Zypher not withstanding). Why? I like the sportier philosophy and attention to detail that the other two brands lack. I hear Buick and Lincoln will be getting big improvements in the future, but right now I'd take an Acura TL because it still has great quality and it has the features I want to have.