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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been a GM-diehard for the majority of my my life and have owned 30 GM vehicles. When friends and family have negative things to say about the company, I always remind them of the positive side, and have been telling them "you just wait a few more years" for quite a while. Being a huge Pontiac and Chevy fan, as well as a bonified "car-guy" and racing enthusiast, it has been great to see what has been done with the Cobalt SS and all the current versions of the corvette. I very much look forward to seeing the production version of the Solstice Coupe on the street and the G8 ST has more character than anything I've seen in years on this side of the pond.

That's the end of my positive spin. Despite the fact that full-size truck sales have hit rock bottom (and you do make the best trucks and suvs on the market, bar-none), you folks seem to have a completely blind mentality in your marketing campaign, and continue to develop products that WILL NOT DO any better than what you are currently selling. After seeing the press release on the Volt yesterday, I have completely lost faith in the management of GM (except John Heinricy). According to your own sales data, no one is willing to purchase a hybrid suv for $40k, in a nation that loves their large vehicles. That alone should tell you that there is NO MARKET for a $40-45k vehicle that competes against Toyota's $20-30k Prius. Furthermore, shame on you for taking an awesome looking concept and turning it into a Prius clone (ok, so it's part Prius, part Focus, and part Malibu). With the Zeta program already being pruned down at Holden, the second-generation Solstice and Sky put on hold, and the Volt program 100% completely ruined, I do not see a car other than the Camaro that you are currently developing that is a worthwhile performance offering. Seems to me, GM should have had an answer for the Suburu STI and Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution three or four years ago. The G6 GXP is the biggest failure since, well, the Aztek.

If your top executives cannot find a solution to making good on your promises, quit getting our hopes up. I am saying if you guys are not willing to do what it takes up top to make things work (and that's exactly what your message is telling the American People), How dare you expect your line workers to respect you, How dare you resent the your former customers going to other product lines, How dare you.
 

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That's the end of my positive spin. Despite the fact that full-size truck sales have hit rock bottom (and you do make the best trucks and suvs on the market, bar-none), you folks seem to have a completely blind mentality in your marketing campaign, and continue to develop products that WILL NOT DO any better than what you are currently selling. After seeing the press release on the Volt yesterday, I have completely lost faith in the management of GM (except John Heinricy). According to your own sales data, no one is willing to purchase a hybrid suv for $40k, in a nation that loves their large vehicles. That alone should tell you that there is NO MARKET for a $40-45k vehicle that competes against Toyota's $20-30k Prius.
Its not going to compete against the Prius, its going to be above the Prius.
Second of all, pricing has not been set, but Lutz said in the MSNBC and Charlie Rose interiview, he said low to mid 30's and up.
Third, NO ONE sells more vehicles over $35k then Chevy.
Right now there is a downturn in all SUV's, hybrid or not. There is no market for a 40-45k hybrid? Maybe you should see what people were playing for Prui when they first came out. 5, 6, 10k over sticker just to have one. Its about the image people....

Furthermore, shame on you for taking an awesome looking concept and turning it into a Prius clone (ok, so it's part Prius, part Focus, and part Malibu). With the Zeta program already being pruned down at Holden, the second-generation Solstice and Sky put on hold, and the Volt program 100% completely ruined, I do not see a car other than the Camaro that you are currently developing that is a worthwhile performance offering. Seems to me, GM should have had an answer for the Suburu STI and Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution three or four years ago. The G6 GXP is the biggest failure since, well, the Aztek.
We all knew 2 months after the autoshow that the Volt would look NOTHING like its concept car due to aerodynamic problems. It looks nothing like a Prius, nothing like a Focus, and only looks like a Malibu because its a Chevy for Christ sakes.
Zeta program is pruned down in the US, not in Holden. The US does not want big large RWD cars right now, so why should GM look stupid and try to sell more of them?
Solstice/Sky are not on hold, its just that the Kappa 2 platform is dead. Sol/Sky could move to Alpha.
Volt is 100% ruined? As long as it gets the claimed mpg targets, this its 100% dead on.
GM should have an answer to the STI or Lancer? Tell me how many units do they sell combined? Someone tell me why GM should have an car in this segment?
G6 GXP is not a failure if people want a sportier model of the G6. It offers an additonal performance package above the GTP.

If your top executives cannot find a solution to making good on your promises, quit getting our hopes up. I am saying if you guys are not willing to do what it takes up top to make things work (and that's exactly what your message is telling the American People), How dare you expect your line workers to respect you, How dare you resent the your former customers going to other product lines, How dare you.
How are they not willing to do what it takes to make things work? They are knowing going to produce a super advance hyrbid car using technology that has been untested currently, and they are going to lose money on every one made, and they STILL gave it a green light even with them losing billions of dollars a year.
For someone that supposedly sticks up for GM, you should be able to see that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/blogs/marty_blog/2011/2010-chevrolet-volt-first-production-photos/

http://www.dailytech.com/Production+Chevrolet+Volt+Design+Unveiled/article12896.htm

Its not going to compete against the Prius, its going to be above the Prius.
Second of all, pricing has not been set, but Lutz said in the MSNBC and Charlie Rose interiview, he said low to mid 30's and up.
Third, NO ONE sells more vehicles over $35k then Chevy.
Right now there is a downturn in all SUV's, hybrid or not. There is no market for a 40-45k hybrid? Maybe you should see what people were playing for Prui when they first came out. 5, 6, 10k over sticker just to have one. Its about the image people....



We all knew 2 months after the autoshow that the Volt would look NOTHING like its concept car due to aerodynamic problems. It looks nothing like a Prius, nothing like a Focus, and only looks like a Malibu because its a Chevy for Christ sakes.
Zeta program is pruned down in the US, not in Holden. The US does not want big large RWD cars right now, so why should GM look stupid and try to sell more of them?
Solstice/Sky are not on hold, its just that the Kappa 2 platform is dead. Sol/Sky could move to Alpha.
Volt is 100% ruined? As long as it gets the claimed mpg targets, this its 100% dead on.
GM should have an answer to the STI or Lancer? Tell me how many units do they sell combined? Someone tell me why GM should have an car in this segment?
G6 GXP is not a failure if people want a sportier model of the G6. It offers an additonal performance package above the GTP.



How are they not willing to do what it takes to make things work? They are knowing going to produce a super advance hyrbid car using technology that has been untested currently, and they are going to lose money on every one made, and they STILL gave it a green light even with them losing billions of dollars a year.
For someone that supposedly sticks up for GM, you should be able to see that.
It's DEFINATELY going to compete against both the Prius and the Next Insight (or try to). 10k over sticker on a Prius was still only around $30-34k, and it was the first four-door hybrid available in any quantity. GM dealers have a habit of adding far too much (market adjustment) to the price of a high-demand vehicle (see GTO & G8 especially), so if the MRSP is too high, the selling price is going to be WAY TOO high. GM has sold more vehicles in the $35k price range, sure, but, the VAST MAJORITY of those were the vehicles that are NOT selling now. It very much DOES look like the vehicles I mentioned, check again. Holden has already started MASSIVE layoffs because of GM cutting back on the NA Zeta cars. Moving the Solstice/Sky over to a uni-body platform will effectively downgrade the vehicles from what they currently are. Sure, Alpha looks great as small, sporty, sedan, but it doesn't look good for a very able rwd roadster. The Evo and Sti sure are low-volume, but, considering how many models GM sells compaired to... EVERY OTHER MANUFACTERER, I can't think of a reason why they couldn't sell something competitive 5 YEARS after they came on the market. The G6 GXP is NOT sportier than the GTP was. It is an appearance package, and it looks plan STUPID. The 2007 G6 GTP is/was actually a sportier car.

The Volt is NOT super advanced. GM has been making these types of vehicles for two decades! What it was SUPPOSED to be was certainly above and beyond what anything else has been, but, it has been cutback into mediocrity. There isn't a SINGLE important thing about the design that was not changed to DRASTICALLY cut cost, and yet, it STILL is not going to hit its original pricepoint.

GM would have been better off making a new Metro and getting it to market a earlier, this gamble has become a very poor one.
 

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Sorry for the tangent, but are you the same guy on the Cobalt forums that has a custom design/built engine mount from (qwikredline i believe?) for your SS? If so, I would like to PM you some more questions about it, and if not, sorry for the mistaken identity.

On topic, I somewhat agree with you on the Volt, but will need to wait until I see the real thing to make final judgement. And you also forgot the huge strides GM has made with Cadillac. I don't think there is a single car that I would want to own more than a CTS-V (or even a regular CTS for that matter) at the moment. Also, i keep hearing people say how trucks aren't selling right now, but if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the Silverado the highest selling vehicle (by quite a bit) last month--more than Camry, Civic, and Accord?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Sorry for the tangent, but are you the same guy on the Cobalt forums that has a custom design/built engine mount from (qwikredline i believe?) for your SS? If so, I would like to PM you some more questions about it, and if not, sorry for the mistaken identity.

On topic, I somewhat agree with you on the Volt, but will need to wait until I see the real thing to make final judgement. And you also forgot the huge strides GM has made with Cadillac. I don't think there is a single car that I would want to own more than a CTS-V (or even a regular CTS for that matter) at the moment. Also, i keep hearing people say how trucks aren't selling right now, but if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the Silverado the highest selling vehicle (by quite a bit) last month--more than Camry, Civic, and Accord?
Actually, I also have a redline, but yeah, that's me, go ahead and PM me.

If GM was making a Hybrid CTS for $45k, I think it'd be a hell of a car.

Looking at the highest selling individual models doesn't get you a very full picture of the market. Even when the F150 was selling the most as a model, overall, cars were still selling very well, and the market has shifted as whole more towards smaller vehicles.
 

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http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/blogs/marty_blog/2011/2010-chevrolet-volt-first-production-photos/

http://www.dailytech.com/Production+Chevrolet+Volt+Design+Unveiled/article12896.htm



It's DEFINATELY going to compete against both the Prius and the Next Insight (or try to). 10k over sticker on a Prius was still only around $30-34k, and it was the first four-door hybrid available in any quantity. GM dealers have a habit of adding far too much (market adjustment) to the price of a high-demand vehicle (see GTO & G8 especially), so if the MRSP is too high, the selling price is going to be WAY TOO high. GM has sold more vehicles in the $35k price range, sure, but, the VAST MAJORITY of those were the vehicles that are NOT selling now. It very much DOES look like the vehicles I mentioned, check again. Holden has already started MASSIVE layoffs because of GM cutting back on the NA Zeta cars. Moving the Solstice/Sky over to a uni-body platform will effectively downgrade the vehicles from what they currently are. Sure, Alpha looks great as small, sporty, sedan, but it doesn't look good for a very able rwd roadster. The Evo and Sti sure are low-volume, but, considering how many models GM sells compaired to... EVERY OTHER MANUFACTERER, I can't think of a reason why they couldn't sell something competitive 5 YEARS after they came on the market. The G6 GXP is NOT sportier than the GTP was. It is an appearance package, and it looks plan STUPID. The 2007 G6 GTP is/was actually a sportier car.

The Volt is NOT super advanced. GM has been making these types of vehicles for two decades! What it was SUPPOSED to be was certainly above and beyond what anything else has been, but, it has been cutback into mediocrity. There isn't a SINGLE important thing about the design that was not changed to DRASTICALLY cut cost, and yet, it STILL is not going to hit its original pricepoint.

GM would have been better off making a new Metro and getting it to market a earlier, this gamble has become a very poor one.
The Volt is totally different than a Prius in one important way: people I know who would never think of buying a regular hybrid are thinking of buying a Volt. The difference: NO GAS.

That's the big thing here. I take my dad, all 70+ years of curmudgeony goodness as an example. He'd never buy a Prius or any regular hybrid. He doesn't see the point. But to him there's something delicious about using no gas for 90+% of his travels -- he mostly travels in and around town.

This is what others are telling me, too. A car that uses NO GAS for 60+kms is something they'd seriously buy, and pay a premium to buy. It has a lot to do with giving the finger to certain interests outside North America -- although the irony that Canada is oil independent never escapes me, but we are inundated with US media so we tend to believe that we're dependent on Middle Eastern oil, too.

Thus, it is a huge advance on a number of fronts. It requires no fuel for a vast majority of people on their normal commutes. It is an electric car, with a range extender, and as a Chevy it's targeted at those that want transportation without the ostentatiousness of Cadillac or some other luxury marque. The Volt, as a Chevy, is TARGETED at normal people, not the rich. Perception is a huge deal here, and the CHEVROLET Volt means GM wants this to be something regular folks can afford and use.

Now, if you want to nitpick on how advanced, go ahead. But the fact is, in the minds of the world's car consumers, this is like the Second Coming. A car that uses electricity for most of one's commute. A car you plug in. And a car that's practical. That's a huge change, and the Volt may well be the Model T of the future of automobiles.

As to making some small car, sure, GM is doing that, too. For those unwilling to pay the premium for the Volt you'll be able to buy its sibling, the Cruze, that gets Prius like numbers out of a regular setup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The Volt is totally different than a Prius in one important way: people I know who would never think of buying a regular hybrid are thinking of buying a Volt. The difference: NO GAS.
Your compairing today's Prius to tomorrow's volt.

Toyota will have their "plug-in" version of the Prius out BEFORE GM gets the volt to market. They've already stated this, and GM has already conceded that they are not trying to race Toyota in this matter.
 

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Your compairing today's Prius to tomorrow's volt.

Toyota will have their "plug-in" version of the Prius out BEFORE GM gets the volt to market. They've already stated this, and GM has already conceded that they are not trying to race Toyota in this matter.
Nope. Tomorrow's Prius will go about 7 - 10kms, which isn't the same as what the Volt will do. Toyota has not mentioned a longer range Prius, though it will "plug in" -- which sounds more like a PR stunt than anything useful.

Look at it this way. I will be able to drive a Volt all day on that single charge. With the Prius, I'll have to use the gas engine. The Volt will emit nothing out of the tail pipe while the Prius will have to for anything beyond a trivial trip. And for the true greenies of the planet, that means a lot: no gas and no emissions for 80+% of Americans during their daily commute. Think long and hard about that. The Prius -- neither now or in 2010 -- will be able to make that claim.

Oh, and don't forget about the plug-in Vue. Isn't that due out before the plug-in Prius? And with Li-Ion batteries, to boot.
 

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Look at it this way. I will be able to drive a Volt all day on that single charge. With the Prius, I'll have to use the gas engine. The Volt will emit nothing out of the tail pipe while the Prius will have to for anything beyond a trivial trip. And for the true greenies of the planet, that means a lot: no gas and no emissions for 80+% of Americans during their daily commute. Think long and hard about that. The Prius -- neither now or in 2010 -- will be able to make that claim.
If I understand correctly, your idea of driving "a Volt all day on that single charge" would be limited to somewhere between 2 HOUR at 20 mph and 1 HOUR at 40 mph. And .... then you would need an 8 to 10 hour recharge from a 120 volt power source ... IF ... the vehicle requires 15 kWh of electrical energy to bring it back to full charge.

It just occurred to me ... that as lazy as some of us Americans are becoming ... how many people will give up the inconvenient routine of plugging in their vehicle after every trip to save $1 or $2 in fuel cost for the next trip to be taken?

Do not forget ... human nature is what it is.
 

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I believe the Volt was made to look mainstream, instead of radical. It looks good, but somewhat nondescript, by GM's choice. You want a (hopefully) mainstream car to be acceptable to a vast majority of people, which I believe they have succeded in doing. By radical, I mean things like the Smart, Aztek, most Lambos, AMC Pacer. A radical look is polarizing, which GM didn't want. If you want to sell a half million a year, it better be good looking and acceptable to the vast majority of buyers.
 

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I sense the Sith are rising- shabodah has turned to the dark side and is now under the control of the evil nay-sayer Buickman.
I think you have this backwards Buickman is Luke...
Darth Varder is Lutz and Wagoner is Emperor Palpatine.

Eventually Lutz will see the error of his ways, turn good and The Emperor will get "the shaft" ;) (pun intended)
 
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