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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)


By Elisabeth Mahy
Wake up to Money, BBC Radio 5 Live

Consumers are still sceptical about electric cars and switching from petrol and diesel remains "a real challenge", the boss of Ford UK has told the BBC.

Lisa Brankin said more government support for the electric car market would be needed ahead of a proposed ban on new petrol and diesel sales in 2030.

Research from energy regulator Ofgem suggests 6.5 million households plan to buy electric cars by 2030.
But the number of electric vehicles (EVs) currently in use remains low.

Research from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) found EVs account for just over 1% of the 35 million vehicles on UK roads.

However, numbers are increasing, with sales of battery-powered vehicles more than doubling last year while the number of plug-in hybrids also grew by more than a third.

Customer concerns
But Ms Brankin, managing director at Ford of Britain and Ireland, told Radio 5 Live's Wake Up to Money programme many customers were sceptical about buying an electric vehicle. The carmaker is still the leading manufacturer in the UK in terms of vehicle sales, according to 2020 figures from Statista.

"We did a survey looking at customer attitudes and we saw that just over 10% of customers were actively considering a battery electric vehicle as their next purchase," Ms Brankin said.

"Most other people were still concerned about a number of things - range, the charging infrastructure, the lack of information available to customers and obviously the price as well.

On the cost of electric vehicles, she said: "We do recognise that that is an issue and that's why we've been calling on government to continue to support the whole range of battery electric vehicles.

The government's goal to phase out vehicles which generate tailpipe emissions is part of a wider plan to make the UK carbon neutral by 2050.
The RAC said in May the UK's charging network would need to grow "exponentially" to cope as electric vehicle sales surged.

Sales have risen rapidly, partly due to strict new emissions rules in the EU which have forced manufacturers to invest billions in new zero-emission models.

A report from the Public Accounts Committee released this month warned the government had no plan to meet the "huge challenge" of persuading motorists to switch to electric vehicles by 2030. The same report said only 13 electric car models on sale in the UK at the moment cost less than £30,000.

Ms Brankin said the company wanted to see a "comprehensive plan" from the government for the switch to electric vehicles "that involves all stakeholders and not just car manufacturers."

The government has said it is investing £2.8bn to help the car industry and drivers make the switch to electric and the added EV costs will fall as production grows around the world.

LINK

Folk are starting to buy electric cars in the UK now, they are just not touching new Ford electric cars, it just seems more of a lack of Ford electric car buyers thing. EV sales up 441% in May in the UK.

Maybe its was because Ford UK & Ford of Europe's bosses are always slagging Brexit off saying car sales in the UK would plummet always full of big threats, gloom & doom.

UK car sales up 674%in in May 2021 one of biggest sales rises best recovery's in Europe at the moment, as they say an elephant never forgets 2030 will probably be a very bad year for Ford of Europe car sales.

Ford's boss should be worried when you look at the European Ford Focus EV sales in Europe they have been totally abysmal UK was one of the biggest buyers in Europe about 20 sales a year 2030-35 will be a total nightmare just 8.5 years away.






US gets an awesome electric F-Series classic F-150 electric for $39,974, Europe gets a dull as ditchwater Ford Focus EV for $46,559 with a trunk full of batteries no space no room mouse sized luggage space, if you are going to design/sell an electric car make sure some useful space in the trunk first Ford, make sure it's not full of batteries is EV purpose built..
 

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US gets an awesome electric F-Series classic F-150 electric for $39,974, Europe gets a dull as ditchwater Ford Focus EV for $46,559 with a trunk full of batteries no space no room mouse sized luggage space, if you are going to design/sell an electric car make sure some useful space in the trunk first Ford, make sure it's not full of batteries is EV purpose built..

Is an F150 actually even usable in the urban areas of the UK?
Focus EV sucks. It's got a far lower range than the original Nissan Leaf!!

Car makers that build a viable EV will have comparable range to a regular ICE car. Would you buy a car with a 75 mile range? No.

This is why Tesla has done so well the past decade or so. They build cars that look like cars one wants to own, not dinky excuses on 4 wheels (i.e. Spark, Bolt, Focus).
 

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Too bad the Central Planners have no insight, no humility, no concept of the frailty of the megalomania. Idiocracy. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
63889


Ford UK look like they will be in big trouble in Europe in 2030-35 when every thing starts to go electric cars only.

European Ford of Europe sales for the Ford Focus EV was 70 sales in Europe, and 19 sales in the UK in 2015. 61 sales in Europe and 22 sales in sales in the UK IN 2016, one-third of all European Ford Focus electric sales were in the UK.

Ford spent $20 million setting up its Ford Focus electric production line in Germany in Europe, with just 60 Ford Focus electric car sales in just 3 years 2014, 2015 & 2016 in the UK, and Ford Focus electric 200 sales in Europe averages out at each Ford Focus electik lost $100,000 on the roof each just on setting up the production line cost alone, that Ford then shut down because nobody wanted to buy a Ford Focus EV in Europe, with a trunk full of batteries no space for any cargo luggage space can you blame them, with massive price tag as well?

Ford need to do a massive redesign of the Ford Focus electric car next time, they need to ensure it has more luggage space not a truck full of batteries, and it needs a massive price drop make it's EV's more practical and affordable if Ford are to remain a going concern a car company in Europe after 2030-35.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Is an F150 actually even usable in the urban areas of the UK?
Focus EV sucks. It's got a far lower range than the original Nissan Leaf!!

Car makers that build a viable EV will have comparable range to a regular ICE car. Would you buy a car with a 75 mile range? No.

This is why Tesla has done so well the past decade or so. They build cars that look like cars one wants to own, not dinky excuses on 4 wheels (i.e. Spark, Bolt, Focus).
You are absolutely right agree with you sentiment.

Was just stating Ford have got the F-Series absolutely right in the US, and the Ford Focus so wrong in Europe sorry l should have made that point a bit more clear how can a Focus EV with crap range cost more than a F-Series with such a superb range and price. I expect Ford US/Australia will make a superb job on the next Ranger EV when it eventually has to arrive in Europe as an EV under European legislation..

Focus will need a massive redesign, you won't get away will selling an unpractical EV with no luggage space a trunk full of batteries, with the F-Series electric Ford have not loaded the bed full up with batteries, the F-Series has gained more luggage space under the hood, has an empty bed, the Focus EV trunk has no practical space it was loaded up with batteries, and 75 mile range was totally abysmal for such a high prices.


Hybrid sales are virtually all Toyota hybrid car sales in the UK.

BEV sales have been soaring in the UK but not at Ford UK, the Ford Focus EV is a massive sales flop sold at a massive loss in Europe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Nothing wrong with the ICE powered Ford Focus, the Ford boss is rightly sceptical about electric future that Ford of Europe will face when the European Union & UK legislate that the Focus will have to electric by 2030 when ICE powered new cars are banned, all new ICE hybrids in 2035 this is the topic of this thread, what happens to Ford in Europe?

Ford Focus EV 19 sales in the UK, plus the 42 sales the European Union the total 61 sales of the Ford Focus EV in 2017. Ford's boss she is right to be sceptical about electric cars, especially if nobody is buying them.



TOP GEAR



ELECTRIC
Forgotten electric cars: the Ford Focus Electric
As Ford announces its fully electric plan, here's one it made earlier

What is it?

Ford’s answer to the Nissan Leaf – a third-generation Focus with a 23kWh battery (later upgraded to 33kWh) instead of a normal petrol or diesel engine. The five-door hatchback was launched in the US in 2011 and arrived in the UK in 2013, looking almost exactly like a regular Focus save for a more aerodynamic face.
Built in the US (for the Americans) and Germany (for the Europeans), the Focus Electric remained on sale until 2018 (2017 in Europe). A few thousand found homes in North America, but over here? Just 61 were sold in all of Europe in 2016, and a quick check online suggests fewer than ten remain on the road in the UK.
We're told a grand total of 24 were registered in the UK, all to Ford. While there were a few Ford dealers here geared-up to take orders for the Focus Electric, and the car was technically on sale to Joe Public, nobody actually bought one.

What kind of technology did it use?

Early cars had a 23kWh liquid-cooled lithium-ion battery that could be charged at a max rate of 6.6kW. Ford of Europe claimed the Electric was, therefore, good for around 100 miles of range, but North America’s EPA rated it at a more realistic 76 miles. For 2017 the battery was enlarged to 33.5kWh (with the option of CCS fast-charging up to 50kW). Ford claimed 140 miles of range, and the EPA 115.

No, but it wasn’t unreasonably slow either. About the same as an electric Skoda Citigo, VW Up or Seat Mii. The Focus Electric’s 107kW (that’s 143bhp), 184lb ft electric motor propelled the weighty, front-wheel drive five-door hatchback to 62mph in 11.7 seconds – similar to a contemporary diesel-powered Focus. Its top speed was 84mph and, though it weighed almost half a tonne more than a diesel Focus, road tests claim it drove reasonably well.

Was it cheap?

Also no, which was part of the problem. When it was launched in the UK in 2013, the Ford Focus Electric cost £28,500 after the Government’s plug-in car grant (which, back then, was a whopping £5,000). That was twice the price of the cheapest petrol-powered Focus.
At the time the cheapest Nissan Leaf you could buy cost thousands less. And remember, the Nissan claimed more range – up to 124 miles versus the 23kWh Ford’s paltry 100 miles on the largely useless ‘NEDC’-type test. In the US, the EPA put the 2014MY Ford’s range at a more realistic 76 miles, compared to 84 miles for the Nissan.

Tell me something interesting about it.

The Focus Electric was built on the same production lines in the USA and Germany as the normal Focus. Ford actually invested some €16million to get its factory in Saarlouis, Germany, ready for the Focus Electric, giving it “the flexibility to react to market demand with increased production volumes”. Production volume it didn’t actually need.

Why did it fail?

Its price was undoubtedly a factor, at least in the UK, where the Focus Electric cost substantially more than any of its rivals. Take range out of the equation and £28,500 (at launch) for a Focus-sized EV is pretty good value in 2021 (the VW ID.3 costs from £28,670), but back in 2013/2014 you could bag a Nissan Leaf for around £16,000 (plus a montly rental for the battery). So that’s what everyone quite rightly did, even though the Focus was probably a nicer object.
Not a more practical one, though, which was the Focus Electric’s other big problem
. While the Leaf was designed as an electric car from the outset, the third-generation Focus was never meant to be an EV. So Ford’s engineers had a tough time making the e-motor and battery fit in spaces not designed to accommodate them. That’s why if you open the boot of a Focus Electric, you’ll see much of the cargo space is taken up with battery.

What did we learn from it?

That EVs need a bespoke platform, or at the very least a platform designed with both petrol/diesel and electric drivetrains in mind. It is possible to engineer your way around the problem – take the Mini Electric, for example. The Mini was never supposed to be an EV, so the fact the Electric has the same amount of boot and interior space as the petrol car is commendable. But Ford wasn’t able to pull off the same trick with the Focus Electric – the necessary tech might not have existed a decade ago. The resulting compromises just didn’t wash.

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

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You are absolutely right agree with you sentiment.

Was just stating Ford have got the F-Series absolutely right in the US, and the Ford Focus so wrong in Europe sorry l should have made that point a bit more clear how can a Focus EV with crap range cost more than a F-Series with such a superb range and price. I expect Ford US/Australia will make a superb job on the next Ranger EV when it eventually has to arrive in Europe as an EV under European legislation..

Focus will need a massive redesign, you won't get away will selling an unpractical EV with no luggage space a trunk full of batteries, with the F-Series electric Ford have not loaded the bed full up with batteries, the F-Series has gained more luggage space under the hood, has an empty bed, the Focus EV trunk has no practical space it was loaded up with batteries, and 75 mile range was totally abysmal for such a high prices.


Hybrid sales are virtually all Toyota hybrid car sales in the UK.

BEV sales have been soaring in the UK but not at Ford UK, the Ford Focus EV is a massive sales flop sold at a massive loss in Europe.
Very useful would be comparable gas and diesel sales. Which I rekkin would dwarf the lektrik.

Why can't we have both? Offer everything and let the free market decide.
That is what I've argued all along. Some here can't seem to grasp the concept of a free market, resort to name calling like "old fogies" or "frightened of change" or just "old people." That's not what this is about, it's about Central Planning mandates vs. a free and open market. Very simple.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
2017 Ford of Europe Sales
Ford Focus (Internal Combustion Engine): 210,500 sales LINK
Ford Focus EV: 61 sales (Sale shown in post 8)

2017 Ford UK Sales
Ford Focus (Internal Combustion Engine): 69,903 sales LINK
Ford Focus EV Sales 19 sales (Sales shown in post 4)

2030 Ford of Europe sales
Ford Focus (Internal Combustion Engine only): 0 sales banned by EU legislation
Ford Focus EV sales?

2035 Ford of Europe sales
Ford Focus (Electric/Internal Combustion Engine hybrids) 0 Sales banned by EU legislation
Ford Focus EV sales?

European Union are creating a you make an EV or be fined heavily, by the introduction of 34 billion Euro C02 based heavy fines on European automakers ICE powered cars they make. The EU then boasts everybody love EVs are buying more of the (We have ways of making the automakers produce them heavy fines C02 on automakers is never mentioned)

Ford of Europe will probably have to close it's expensive German Ford Focus production lines down move most it's European manufacturing base to China if it wants to complete on price with the ICE when it's gone, or go out of business as cheaper Chinese EV's flood the European market, the luxury car producers probably won't be hit so hard their buyers have bigger wallets required to buy EV's.

2030 all EV roads lead to China, EU have put higher taxes on that so consumers will be forced out of EV's with higher prices in mass produced cars will have to move closer to work cycle like Boris, only the luxury car buyers have the wallets that match high EV prices.

Typical Example base model Fiat 500 ICE only costs £11,000 ($15,491 at the moment, Fiat will stop it selling ICE only cars after 2025, Fiat 500e electric car costs £29,995 ($42,245) the base ICE Fiat 500 model buyers will struggle when it's an EV only car market, and expensive BEVs will be the the only car on the menu at Fiat after 2030. (Fiat will be offering cheaper version with a lot less EV range in the future).

I think the feeling amongst most European is they will put a million miles on their ICE car after 2030 deadline, not sure where that leaves Ford of Europe.
 
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Ok...so can we use the CT4/5's paltry sales numbers in the US as evidence of the contrary?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)

Maybe a little later in 2035 in the biggest car buying Californian State, when you can compare an EV model only car sales v against the same gasoline car sales from the past.

The mid term future 2021-2030 Chevy Volt powered ELR in Caddy clothing, both Chevy/Caddy E-Revs are both gonna's in EU/US? Toyota are milking HEV sales in Europe at the moment, will Toyota be be any good at doing BEV's in the future who knows?

Tesla certainly are hitting No1 spots in like the UK, something like a typical luxury American made gas guzzling car out-of-tune with EU fuel prices/taxes fails miserably at you can count European CT4/CT5 sales on one hand in Europe.

If Americans deliver the right kind of American made products to Europe, Europeans will buy them RWD Tesla is proof of that. Tesla Model 3 was 15th best selling vehicle in the world in 2020 if you deliver the right kind of American made EV products to for rich few that can afford expensive EV's in the luxury car market,

The bottom end mass market Ford Focus EV is a different kettle of fish you are pricing you natural mass produced buyers out of their new car market with EV'S after 2030, the typical example l posted above the base model Fiat 500 ICE only costs £11,000 ($15,491 at the moment, Fiat will stop it selling ICE only cars after 2025, Fiat 500e electric car costs £29,995 ($42,245) the base ICE Fiat 500 model buyers will struggle when it's an EV only car market, and expensive BEVs will be the the only car on the menu at Fiat after 2030, so the $15,491 Fiat 500 gasoline car buyer of today, will have to fork out find extra cash $42,245 for their Fiat 500e in the future, a lot will simply abandon car ownership or only buy second hand EV's only that will be in short supply, apart from the ones that need expensive battery pack replacements.


Is Ford UK boss Lisa Brankin right to be sceptical?

European car buyers seem to have no desire for buying an Focus EV when it was offered to them it's beyond there budget, l think it is that's what's worrying the Ford UK boss she can see the massive fall off in demand coming in the future, and a lot less profitability in electric cars coming, she will be held accountable for it in Detroit by her superiors.
 
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2017 Ford of Europe Sales
Ford Focus (Internal Combustion Engine): 210,500 sales LINK
Ford Focus EV: 61 sales (Sale shown in post 8)

2017 Ford UK Sales
Ford Focus (Internal Combustion Engine): 69,903 sales LINK
Ford Focus EV Sales 19 sales (Sales shown in post 4)

2030 Ford of Europe sales
Ford Focus (Internal Combustion Engine only): 0 sales banned by EU legislation
Ford Focus EV sales?

2035 Ford of Europe sales
Ford Focus (Electric/Internal Combustion Engine hybrids) 0 Sales banned by EU legislation
Ford Focus EV sales?

European Union are creating a you make an EV or be fined heavily, by the introduction of 34 billion Euro C02 based heavy fines on European automakers ICE powered cars they make. The EU then boasts everybody love EVs are buying more of the (We have ways of making the automakers produce them heavy fines C02 on automakers is never mentioned)

Ford of Europe will probably have to close it's expensive German Ford Focus production lines down move most it's European manufacturing base to China if it wants to complete on price with the ICE when it's gone, or go out of business as cheaper Chinese EV's flood the European market, the luxury car producers probably won't be hit so hard their buyers have bigger wallets required to buy EV's.

2030 all EV roads lead to China, EU have put higher taxes on that so consumers will be forced out of EV's with higher prices in mass produced cars will have to move closer to work cycle like Boris, only the luxury car buyers have the wallets that match high EV prices.

Typical Example base model Fiat 500 ICE only costs £11,000 ($15,491 at the moment, Fiat will stop it selling ICE only cars after 2025, Fiat 500e electric car costs £29,995 ($42,245) the base ICE Fiat 500 model buyers will struggle when it's an EV only car market, and expensive BEVs will be the the only car on the menu at Fiat after 2030. (Fiat will be offering cheaper version with a lot less EV range in the future).

I think the feeling amongst most European is they will put a million miles on their ICE car after 2030 deadline, not sure where that leaves Ford of Europe.
The Suicide of the West.
 
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Is an F150 actually even usable in the urban areas of the UK?
Focus EV sucks. It's got a far lower range than the original Nissan Leaf!!

Car makers that build a viable EV will have comparable range to a regular ICE car. Would you buy a car with a 75 mile range? No.

This is why Tesla has done so well the past decade or so. They build cars that look like cars one wants to own, not dinky excuses on 4 wheels (i.e. Spark, Bolt, Focus).
My though was similar. To date, other than Tesla, everything else has been pretty much non-mainstream and therefore poor market place acceptance gauges. An article like this will be relevant if sales are like this 10 years from now with a variety of mainstream electrics available.

I think an article like this better suits people who don't like the idea of electrics. They can point to hard statistics and say "look, the market doesn't want these things", but the hard statistics of today ignore the "science project" reality of what is available and therefore limiting the market to early adapters (excluding Tesla, and to answer Tesla the "ponzi scheme" argument comes out, which, other than making no sense, doesn't explain why Tesla sells well).
 

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Why can't we have both? Offer everything and let the free market decide.
Because the markets aren't truly free, they controlled by both government regulations and corporate interests. And don't assume those necessarily diverge.

The automakers would rather the governments incentivize a quicker transition to EVs. You are already seeing in the past 5 years or so that development of new ICE platforms is extremely expensive, and there's been more and more consolidation of manufacturers because of this. Why would a manufacturer want to spend parallel development dollars on ICE and EV platforms, and await the whims of the consumer to pick the winner? That's a waste of the corporation's money. They've already done the math to figure EV platforms will be cheaper to produce and more widely scalable than ICE.
 

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Because the markets aren't truly free, they controlled by both government regulations and corporate interests. And don't assume those necessarily diverge.

The automakers would rather the governments incentivize a quicker transition to EVs. You are already seeing in the past 5 years or so that development of new ICE platforms is extremely expensive, and there's been more and more consolidation of manufacturers because of this. Why would a manufacturer want to spend parallel development dollars on ICE and EV platforms, and await the whims of the consumer to pick the winner? That's a waste of the corporation's money. They've already done the math to figure EV platforms will be cheaper to produce and more widely scalable than ICE.
A thought regarding the concept of "governments forcing the change". GM has been working on BEV for a long time, before global warming became a thing. Perhaps BEV was coming no matter what. I can see the allure to auto makers now that the battery tech is coming of age - simpler construction, less plants and less headcount. Why wouldn't the auto makers want this? Plus, BEV handily takes them out of gas guzzler limelight - "look, our 1,000 hp Hummer has no emissions"!
 

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Just a thought regarding the concept of "governments forcing the change". GM has been working on BEV for a long time, before global warming became a thing. Perhaps BEV was coming no matter what. I can see the allure to auto makers now that the battery tech is coming of age - simpler construction, less plants and less headcount. Why wouldn't the auto makers want this? Plus, BEV handily takes them out of gas guzzler limelight - "look, our 1,000 hp Hummer has no emissions"!
Bingo, I don't even think they really care all that much about climate change really, just that it's a useful reason to please both the government, the investor, and the consumer (at least the consumer to whom it is a serious issue). GM, if they do this right, get to improve their margins and long term sustainability as a company, if they can get their foot farther in the door earlier than others. So it's a no brainer to nudge the government to incentivize a quicker move to mass adaption of EVs.
 

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I would love to know how we can power all the cars out there when we have rolling blackouts just from existing usage. Typical stupid shortsighted idiocracy. We are not stopping climate change - we need to go ahead and warm it up so we can have more arable land for food production...

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