I grew up in another age from most people on this forum. RWD American V-8 coupes, Impala SS types not pony cars, would be my preference. However, that age is gone forever. The GTO is about the largest V-8 coupe your ever going to see. Anyway, we have a new Mustang and a Camaro and mabey a Charger is around the corner along with the GTO but I am wondering if it matters anymore? I went to see the fast and furious flicks because I like performence cars. The crowd was mostly young and there were not a lot of American cars in the parking lot. Has the American V-8 lost it's magic for the young? Has the Evo, WRX, SRT type cars permenently replaced the old style muscle car? Has the tuner crowds blown 4 cilinder become the modern engine of choice? Are cars like the V-8 powered GTO, Mustang, Camaro doomed because they are too expensive or appeal to a dead auto age? Is Detroit behind the youth curve again? Opinions from you young guys welcome but try and be objective even if you HATE ricers and 4 cilinders.
Camaro vs Mustang
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This is what I think:
1) Hollywood has had a major part in making the import scene so big.
2) Most of the kids grew up and learned on driving FWD 4 banger cars. So the kids are most comfortable driving that.
3) They see imports as generally cheaper and more fuel efficient. This appeals heavily to cash strapped college kids.
4)Customization, kida can customize imports to no end because there is a huge aftermarket. Most of the aftermarket I see for muscle and sprts cars are for engine and drivetrain, and most kids dont know how to work on engines.
Now I am 18 and drive a 1985 Trans Am with a 305 TPI. Eventually I'd like to drop the 305 and go with a 350 or 383, which i would build myself.
And i hate ricers, i respect the ones that can actually go fast, but i despise the ones that think they are fast but are really all show and no go.
And I don;t think Detroit is behind. The public is craving more power and FWD has almost reached its HP limit, so V8 RWD cars are on there way back.
Matt
1) Hollywood has had a major part in making the import scene so big.
2) Most of the kids grew up and learned on driving FWD 4 banger cars. So the kids are most comfortable driving that.
3) They see imports as generally cheaper and more fuel efficient. This appeals heavily to cash strapped college kids.
4)Customization, kida can customize imports to no end because there is a huge aftermarket. Most of the aftermarket I see for muscle and sprts cars are for engine and drivetrain, and most kids dont know how to work on engines.
Now I am 18 and drive a 1985 Trans Am with a 305 TPI. Eventually I'd like to drop the 305 and go with a 350 or 383, which i would build myself.
And i hate ricers, i respect the ones that can actually go fast, but i despise the ones that think they are fast but are really all show and no go.
And I don;t think Detroit is behind. The public is craving more power and FWD has almost reached its HP limit, so V8 RWD cars are on there way back.
Matt
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I agree 100% with matt in how the media project these cars as "fast" and other people further project this image with car slike the RX7, Supra, 300Z, and DSM's. People think that well there car has a 4cyl import, why cant they go fast? It all came from people wanting to make there car fast and they looked to japan for what to do. The world of turbo's came in and really moved these cars into a different world. But most kids dont know jack about an engine. All they know is that it runs. More people are trying to project the image of tons of money with large rims, big systems, LCD screens, etc where back in the 60's, the baby boomers fell in love with fast cars that could get them away from all the problems that botherd them like the war, there parents, the "man" and took them into a place where they could totaly bring themselves into a new world of speed and power. Some teens like Matt and myself(im 20, but can I just call myself a teen?) well teens and 20's still fell that way. Maybe we arent getting away from the world, but the feel of ground pounding torque and hp just makes us feel like we can destroy the world with one rev. I personaly think that the whole import thing is sad. I can see that you want to make your car look good, but going to the level as most of these people do? Do you ever watch these import shows? They spend THOUSANDS on body kits from Japan? Tons of money on crazy and ugly paint jobs, more in systems and audio visual equimpent? Its whats popular. The smart ricers know that unless they are ready to really get down to busniess, they wont be able to pull on a domestic sports car. Stupid ricers is what really drives this whole generation y. People saying more hp/liter and other commical comments like that just show how stupid they really are. "My car makes 90hp per liter"...well thast good, cause you only have 1 and 1/2 liters. 
They spread this stupid culture farther and faster every day. With there old 1960's and 70's metality of all V8's guzzle gas, smoke, break down and fall apart after a few thousand miles is so off its unbeliveable. Yes, some of the imports are fast, but 90% of them are ricers. Slow stupid waste of money time, steel and fiberglass. Pep boys performance parts along with tons of amps rule the day right now. People that still are in love with teh domestic sports car like the mustang, camaro, and older muscle cars. I am happy to see that companies want to appeal to gen y people like myself... but what makes me sad is that they are appealing to the wrong part of gen Y in my mind. But in all honestly thats where the money is right now. Its not in 2dr RWD sports coupes with big 400 hp V8's, its in 150hp 2.0 4 bangers. Man, I hate my generation. I hope my brother and my kids dont fall into this ricer mentality. My only hope is that if GM and other domestics wana get into this game, they need to kick a$$ and cant look back. SRT4 kicked thoes imports right in the nuts. The Ecotec is becoming a huge motor for racing and is gaining street cred now that more and more performance mods are coming out along with performance cars from GM. I just wish GM would give me back my camaro, keep teh vette strong, and I could care less what you do with imports and sport compacts. I know ill smoke thoes side-ways hat-wearing, pants-down-to-there-knees, rap-blasting retards away.
They spread this stupid culture farther and faster every day. With there old 1960's and 70's metality of all V8's guzzle gas, smoke, break down and fall apart after a few thousand miles is so off its unbeliveable. Yes, some of the imports are fast, but 90% of them are ricers. Slow stupid waste of money time, steel and fiberglass. Pep boys performance parts along with tons of amps rule the day right now. People that still are in love with teh domestic sports car like the mustang, camaro, and older muscle cars. I am happy to see that companies want to appeal to gen y people like myself... but what makes me sad is that they are appealing to the wrong part of gen Y in my mind. But in all honestly thats where the money is right now. Its not in 2dr RWD sports coupes with big 400 hp V8's, its in 150hp 2.0 4 bangers. Man, I hate my generation. I hope my brother and my kids dont fall into this ricer mentality. My only hope is that if GM and other domestics wana get into this game, they need to kick a$$ and cant look back. SRT4 kicked thoes imports right in the nuts. The Ecotec is becoming a huge motor for racing and is gaining street cred now that more and more performance mods are coming out along with performance cars from GM. I just wish GM would give me back my camaro, keep teh vette strong, and I could care less what you do with imports and sport compacts. I know ill smoke thoes side-ways hat-wearing, pants-down-to-there-knees, rap-blasting retards away.
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An editorial in the latest Car & Driveer, I think by Brock Yates, touched on the appeal of the blown 4-banger over the V8. He seemed to write-off the V8 altogether, as if it will never be synonomous with street racing again. Really? I often wonder if the current tuner preference is for most-economical speed or four cylinders with a turbo. I think it's the former. They can easliy find used FWD coupes, with an eager aftermarket in place to help them soup it up. I'd like to think these guys would welcome more cylinders. But, there are mid-90s Camaros and Mustangs out there for a bargain, with a fair amount of aftermarket support as well. I'd think a hotted-up F-car could be built for a reasonable sum. Yet you'll find few Camaro vs. Civic showdowns. What gives?
I think it's all about what's trendy. These guys will race whatever wins, but would rather be seen in Civics with big wings. I suspect if a Civic came with a V6 or V8, they'd be all over it like soy sauce on Uncle Ben's. Driving up to the party in a circa-1993 F-body is just not hip, I guess. If my theory holds, then it's up to Detroit to make American iron fashionable again. I don't think it has anything to do with # of cylinders.
I think it's all about what's trendy. These guys will race whatever wins, but would rather be seen in Civics with big wings. I suspect if a Civic came with a V6 or V8, they'd be all over it like soy sauce on Uncle Ben's. Driving up to the party in a circa-1993 F-body is just not hip, I guess. If my theory holds, then it's up to Detroit to make American iron fashionable again. I don't think it has anything to do with # of cylinders.
Well, I'm 37, so I guess I fall in between guys like bigals and yoblues. I've been interested in cars all my life and from what I can see, things really haven't changed all that much.
When I was reading Hot Rod in the late 70s and early 80s, the old debate between "hot rodders" and "street rodders" was just coming to an end. Hod rodders were the then "old school" guys who only worked on cars before a certain cut off date (the date kept evolving forward, but I seem to remember 1947 as being a number that came up). These guys prided themselves in the fact that the built their cars - they weren't store bought or bolt-on, they were creations.
The "street rodder" guys were from the beginning to end of the factory performance era. They started with store bought cars and added bolt-ons, engine work, etc. to make them faster. To the "hot rodder" guys, these were simply mildly modified factory cars that anyone could build. But, the street rodder guys countered with the vast improvements in performance that came with more modern machines.
Today, similar arguement range between what used to be "street rodders" and "ricers". In my mind there are plenty of people from both factions who are far more concerned with adding flash over substance - there are plenty of Civics and Intergras AND mid-80s F-bodies and Mustangs running around with flashy paint, bigger wheels and tires, headers and exhaust and a loud stereos. So what? As long as their owners enjoy them, why rag on them?
I've also seen a couple of Civics in my area with some very tasteful body mods and beautiful paint. Don't know what they were running under the hood, but the cars were a testament to some serious work and craftmanship.
In terms of modified cars, if its done with skill and taste I can certainly appreciate it - whatever it is.
In terms of factory performance - I think there is plenty of room for both. For some, there is simply no substitute for a V8. Myself, I'm not so concerned about the engine configuration as I am about the whole package - handling, braking, engine, feel -- how it all comes together.
When I was reading Hot Rod in the late 70s and early 80s, the old debate between "hot rodders" and "street rodders" was just coming to an end. Hod rodders were the then "old school" guys who only worked on cars before a certain cut off date (the date kept evolving forward, but I seem to remember 1947 as being a number that came up). These guys prided themselves in the fact that the built their cars - they weren't store bought or bolt-on, they were creations.
The "street rodder" guys were from the beginning to end of the factory performance era. They started with store bought cars and added bolt-ons, engine work, etc. to make them faster. To the "hot rodder" guys, these were simply mildly modified factory cars that anyone could build. But, the street rodder guys countered with the vast improvements in performance that came with more modern machines.
Today, similar arguement range between what used to be "street rodders" and "ricers". In my mind there are plenty of people from both factions who are far more concerned with adding flash over substance - there are plenty of Civics and Intergras AND mid-80s F-bodies and Mustangs running around with flashy paint, bigger wheels and tires, headers and exhaust and a loud stereos. So what? As long as their owners enjoy them, why rag on them?
I've also seen a couple of Civics in my area with some very tasteful body mods and beautiful paint. Don't know what they were running under the hood, but the cars were a testament to some serious work and craftmanship.
In terms of modified cars, if its done with skill and taste I can certainly appreciate it - whatever it is.
In terms of factory performance - I think there is plenty of room for both. For some, there is simply no substitute for a V8. Myself, I'm not so concerned about the engine configuration as I am about the whole package - handling, braking, engine, feel -- how it all comes together.
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I dont dislike imports, its just that i hate ricers, If you car has all the appearance mods done and you like start saying their car is faster than mine BS that tickes me off. When they go on and on on how there 5 inch exhaust tip makes 15 hp and there K&n filter knocked of 3 seconds on there 1/4 mile, that crap pisses me off to no end.
If you make your car a show car, all looks, and you dont try that faster that you crap i wont have a problem with, in fact i may like how it looks, when you start talking trash about how your car suddenly could smoke a vette cause of you 3 ft wing, 5 inch tip and extra 150lbs of plastic hanging of the car with the stock engine, thats when the line is crossed.
Tuners I have complete respect for them. How they can get a normal civic into 10's is amazing. They know there cars inside and out and i give them respect for that.
I too love the hp per liter arguement. When i get into that i just tell them hp per liter means jack squat, its hp per engine that counts.
Matt
If you make your car a show car, all looks, and you dont try that faster that you crap i wont have a problem with, in fact i may like how it looks, when you start talking trash about how your car suddenly could smoke a vette cause of you 3 ft wing, 5 inch tip and extra 150lbs of plastic hanging of the car with the stock engine, thats when the line is crossed.
Tuners I have complete respect for them. How they can get a normal civic into 10's is amazing. They know there cars inside and out and i give them respect for that.
I too love the hp per liter arguement. When i get into that i just tell them hp per liter means jack squat, its hp per engine that counts.
Matt
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I've seen this sentiment a few times on this thread... to each his own, but most who truly appreciate engines appreciate high specific horsepower (hp/L) figures. It's a reflection of doing more with less, which is really what a performance car is all about.
I love V8s, the sound and torque spread... but if given the choice between a mild 5.7 V8 (200hp and a wide torque spread) and a 2.0 I4 turbo with the same output, I'd have to take the 4-banger. Not only because it'll shed about 200 pounds in my car, but also because an engine really tuned feels better than something gasping for air. Of course, I'd really want the 5.7 with the same specific output as the 2.0, which would put the V8 at almost 600 hp. :blink:
I, too, am from the muscle car era and have been toying with vehicles since the 60's.
One thing that differs is the field of aftermarket parts vendors. There is a magnitude increase of companies that can supply intake and exhaust manifolds, cams, and fuel systems. Add to this the electronic age has taken over. And they cover everything from 4 to 8 cylinder motors. I used to go to Steinhaus Wreckers on route 89 for parts-that's because it was the only way to get the odd part. Now, that odd part is no longer odd. One can build a car from scratch using the many vendors. There are body panels, frames, upholstery, window handles (and on and on) for many of the popular cars.
A lot of those guys building parts from scratch would gladly opt for a purchased part (and they come with all sorts of technical data).
Half way good condition 69 Novas, Chevelles, Ford Fairlane GT's cost a pretty good buck nowadays. So, the Honda Civic with some add-ons is a way of starting out. It seems the Toyota Supra motor has become the Chevy smallblock of the tuners.
The Honda Civic would be right up GM's alley. A small car that sells like hotcakes with only a few cosmetic changes from year to year. They do have the Cavalier which seems to be a good car to customize. Dodge's SRT is a fine example of hitting the nail on the head.
The more I see of those little cars being customized, the more credit I give the owners. It takes a lot of ingenuity to cram all that equipment under those hoods. Installing headers on a 60's car was no where near as difficult as doing the same on one of these ricers.
In the end, if the guy is running a hemi Cuda or a tricked out Mitsu, I see one thing happening. He's a hotrodder.
One thing that differs is the field of aftermarket parts vendors. There is a magnitude increase of companies that can supply intake and exhaust manifolds, cams, and fuel systems. Add to this the electronic age has taken over. And they cover everything from 4 to 8 cylinder motors. I used to go to Steinhaus Wreckers on route 89 for parts-that's because it was the only way to get the odd part. Now, that odd part is no longer odd. One can build a car from scratch using the many vendors. There are body panels, frames, upholstery, window handles (and on and on) for many of the popular cars.
A lot of those guys building parts from scratch would gladly opt for a purchased part (and they come with all sorts of technical data).
Half way good condition 69 Novas, Chevelles, Ford Fairlane GT's cost a pretty good buck nowadays. So, the Honda Civic with some add-ons is a way of starting out. It seems the Toyota Supra motor has become the Chevy smallblock of the tuners.
The Honda Civic would be right up GM's alley. A small car that sells like hotcakes with only a few cosmetic changes from year to year. They do have the Cavalier which seems to be a good car to customize. Dodge's SRT is a fine example of hitting the nail on the head.
The more I see of those little cars being customized, the more credit I give the owners. It takes a lot of ingenuity to cram all that equipment under those hoods. Installing headers on a 60's car was no where near as difficult as doing the same on one of these ricers.
In the end, if the guy is running a hemi Cuda or a tricked out Mitsu, I see one thing happening. He's a hotrodder.
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If there ever was a small block chevy of the import world, its the B16 from honda. Ive seen them swapped in every single honda, acura, etc over and over. The supra motor is the "hemi" or "big block" of the imports. GM plans to change that with teh cobalt and I tihnk its a good move.
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The 2JZ-GTE and the 7M-GTE are definitly the dream engines of the import tuners. 500-600hp is possible out of both. They are expensive ad hell though.
Matt
Matt
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The new american cars are getting better and better. I think in a few years you will start to see more domestics and less imports. It will take a few years because they have to restablish a good image with the public. The new dodge 2.4 is a good motor and the GM Ecotec is also a beast.
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nah nah nahh nah naaah! Ecotec is better!! And with less displacement.
MORE HP PER LITER!! OMG I USED IT!! AHHH IM A RICER!!! LOOOORDDD NOOOOO IM MELTING...OHHHH WHAT A CRUEL WORLD OHHHH AHH IM MELTING NOOOOOOO
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nah nah nahh nah naaah! Ecotec is better!! And with less displacement.
MORE HP PER LITER!! OMG I USED IT!! AHHH IM A RICER!!! LOOOORDDD NOOOOO IM MELTING...OHHHH WHAT A CRUEL WORLD OHHHH AHH IM MELTING NOOOOOOO [/b][/quote]
I know this is a little off topic, but did everyone notice all the rice at the Scion booth at NAIAS. OMG I almost puked, especially with the music and the dressed up actors showing the cars. As far as Camaro vs. Mustang. I really hope they revive that car before they start doing comparisons between the Stang and the Corvette. Even though I couldnt have one because my insurance is too high, I remember when I was getting my Bravada I was eying a bad azz black one with chrome rims, it was sweet. He tried to convince me to get it, but when I called my Ins agent it was going to cost more that my payment for Ins.
Fads and styles go around and around. A large portion of kids seem to be realizing the lack of performance from FWD 4-cylinder drive trains. There will always be diehards of such a layout but "cool" is changing again, at least here in St. Louis. They are starting to realize that Civics with 30k in mods are still basically Civics.
Actually if you want to know whats funny, my teacher-friends claim kids around 16-17 are starting to want minivans. Why? They're cheap, and they are realizing all of the illicit goings-on that can occur in minivans! :lol:
Actually if you want to know whats funny, my teacher-friends claim kids around 16-17 are starting to want minivans. Why? They're cheap, and they are realizing all of the illicit goings-on that can occur in minivans! :lol:
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There is a definate market for a true "Muscle Car" out there - be it 2 or 4 door. The baby boomers have the money and most are now seeing the kids grown up enough to buy a car they want for fun instead of utility. There just hasn't been anything since the of late to deliver the goods. The F-Bodys were a little too sporty but the Impala SS delivered the goods pretty well, but just as the A-body in 72, the G-Body in '87 and the B-Body in '96, GM killed the line just when it reached its zenith
Rice can be done many ways.....for looks , for rideability, for Speed ....or any combination of the three and probably more.
What gets me is that no matter what the flavor, they ALL think their cars are extremely fast, which usually isn't the case. More times than not its "All show, no Go", but there are those that are fast.....and they spend ALOT to do it. What does a Turbo kit cost - soupe to nutz ??
For the price of one of their carbon fiber hoods and a rear wing, I put a bigger turbo, larger injectors and an ajustble fuel pressure reg. on my '87 Turbo Regal Limited and put the car LOWWW into the 12's.
For about the Same amount of money, I got my heads ported, put a cam, good exhaust and gears into my GS and put that car also into the mid 12's.
As you can read in my signature below, Im stuck in the days of V8's and Posi RWD and probable wont buy a new car until something of similar design is offered
The money the import crowd throws at their rides is staggeringly huge compared to "The way it was" when you saved for months just to get some Craigers and new meats
GM needs to seriously figure out a plan to snatch some of that disposeable income
Rice can be done many ways.....for looks , for rideability, for Speed ....or any combination of the three and probably more.
What gets me is that no matter what the flavor, they ALL think their cars are extremely fast, which usually isn't the case. More times than not its "All show, no Go", but there are those that are fast.....and they spend ALOT to do it. What does a Turbo kit cost - soupe to nutz ??
For the price of one of their carbon fiber hoods and a rear wing, I put a bigger turbo, larger injectors and an ajustble fuel pressure reg. on my '87 Turbo Regal Limited and put the car LOWWW into the 12's.
For about the Same amount of money, I got my heads ported, put a cam, good exhaust and gears into my GS and put that car also into the mid 12's.
As you can read in my signature below, Im stuck in the days of V8's and Posi RWD and probable wont buy a new car until something of similar design is offered
The money the import crowd throws at their rides is staggeringly huge compared to "The way it was" when you saved for months just to get some Craigers and new meats
GM needs to seriously figure out a plan to snatch some of that disposeable income
My thoughts exactly, Banzai!
The next craze will be tricking out minivans. It happened in the 70's with the large RWD vans. The insides were gutted and made to look like somebody's living room. Remember those big murals on the sides? All types of sceneries. Then will come the minivan without the flower power. I guess I'll hold onto to my jalopy 89. I keep joking with the guys at work that I'm going to overhaul it and trick it out one year.
The thing about muscle cars and the baby boomers is that WE like the style of the muscle cars in the 60's- not many of the new bodies. Isn't this what is happening with the new GTO? Two factions; the old guys who want a traditional look and the younger guys who like the Cavalier-style body. Me? That's why I opted for the Monte Carlo. It has a more traditional body that stands out in the crowd. BTW, this month's Hot Rod mag has an article about a guy who daily drives a 96 Impala SS. An ordinary vehicle if you don't consider 900hp under the hood from twin turbos. Now, that's my kind of car!
The next craze will be tricking out minivans. It happened in the 70's with the large RWD vans. The insides were gutted and made to look like somebody's living room. Remember those big murals on the sides? All types of sceneries. Then will come the minivan without the flower power. I guess I'll hold onto to my jalopy 89. I keep joking with the guys at work that I'm going to overhaul it and trick it out one year.
The thing about muscle cars and the baby boomers is that WE like the style of the muscle cars in the 60's- not many of the new bodies. Isn't this what is happening with the new GTO? Two factions; the old guys who want a traditional look and the younger guys who like the Cavalier-style body. Me? That's why I opted for the Monte Carlo. It has a more traditional body that stands out in the crowd. BTW, this month's Hot Rod mag has an article about a guy who daily drives a 96 Impala SS. An ordinary vehicle if you don't consider 900hp under the hood from twin turbos. Now, that's my kind of car!
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I think you swerved into a big reason the Camaro vs Mustang debate has faded. Insurance companies killed the pony car market with huge surcharges for unmarried males under 25.
I may be wrong, but the insurance on a slammed Civic is the same as for a stock one.
Anybody know about this? [/b][/quote]
That's why the pony cars need to be designed for people over 30, not like the last Camaro/Firebird that catered mostly to people under 30. Frankly, if teenagers and early-twenty-somethings don't really care for the new Mustang or next Camaro, who cares? I'd like to think there's a pony-car that would appeal to everyone 8 to 80, but if you have to choose between satisfying Gen Y or the older crowd, then forget Gen Y. The pony car may be a case of "can't please all the people" ... so design it for those who can afford the car and its insurance! I know alot of folks over 30 that gotta have an '05 Mustang, so it seems Ford did good. Give the younger crowd what they want, too, be it Scion-like boxes or supercharged Cobalts.
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