I think we had pretty good info on this news already, other than the ultra lux claim. Now that would be sweet if they really do surprise everyone with an ultra lux car sooner than anyone is expecting. Not sure what alive and well means though? That mean they are still thinking about it or have they been slowly and secretly trying to do what they have to to make it happen?

 

I think we had pretty good info on this news already, other than the ultra lux claim. Now that would be sweet if they really do surprise everyone with an ultra lux car sooner than anyone is expecting. Not sure what alive and well means though? That mean they are still thinking about it or have they been slowly and secretly trying to do what they have to to make it happen?

Maybe GM want to see how will people react with new DTS/STs and then decide if they will build any ultra lux-sedan. Is this ultra lux sedan suppose to be competition to rolls royce and bentley or is it maybe s class? Or something between?

 

It's heeeeere...

From what I've seen, STS's sales are down in the dumpster already, and I haven't heard anything yet on the timeframe for the replacement. I don't think retooling the plant to mirror the Chinese SLS line would be too costly, so they could move the STS into the S-Class territory just about today.

It would also make sense to kill the DTS and Lucerne at that time to make room for the new Buick Park Avenue to take over from both. Well, GMI sense at least, even if not financial sense...

 

In the Automotive News interview, Taylor and his superior, Troy Clarke, GM's president of North America, also confirmed that a new entry-level model, designed to slot in below the CTS, is a distinct possibility. Both execs feel that Cadillac's brand image could sustain such a vehicle, likely to be priced in the $28,00 to $32,000 range.

They could also be heard through the wall of the conference room frantically laughing while toasting "to the death of Saab har har har!"

 

It's heeeeere...

From what I've seen, STS's sales are down in the dumpster already, and I haven't heard anything yet on the timeframe for the replacement. I don't think retooling the plant to mirror the Chinese SLS line would be too costly, so they could move the STS into the S-Class territory just about today.

It would also make sense to kill the DTS and Lucerne at that time to make room for the new Buick Park Avenue to take over from both. Well, GMI sense at least, even if not financial sense...

Actually, after seeing the new CTS for the first time yesterday that car isn't good enough. The CTS has a nicer interior.

 

I beg to differ 100%. The CTS is a step forward, but in the wrong direction. The steering wheel, with the largest eraser in the world as the centre, is rather awful, and overall I agree with those who said the interior reminds them of the alien queen.

The SLS's classy touches might have been just what Cadillac lacked to break into the European market - just like the added length for the price.

 

I think we had pretty good info on this news already, other than the ultra lux claim. Now that would be sweet if they really do surprise everyone with an ultra lux car sooner than anyone is expecting

Yes, we've had info on this, but I'm glad to hear it in other places as well -- any kind of "confirmation" that cements their comitment to the entry-level and top-end luxury segment is a good one.

It's heeeeere...

I don't think retooling the plant to mirror the Chinese SLS line would be too costly, so they could move the STS into the S-Class territory just about today.

It would also make sense to kill the DTS and Lucerne at that time to make room for the new Buick Park Avenue to take over from both. Well, GMI sense at least, even if not financial sense...

I agree with this. GM already had the SLS available. I would wonder if in the short-term it wouldn't be wise to just kill the STS and DTS and bring along the SLS as the replacement. But this might be asking a bit too much from them -- though it DOES make sense. How would this go over in Europe I wonder?

I would suspect that as soon as the DTS dies, the Lucerne dies as well. This will signal the eventual move of all non-peformance RWD vehicles to the Zeta/VE platform.

I bet it won't happen for a few years.

They could also be heard through the wall of the conference room frantically laughing while toasting "to the death of Saab har har har!"

Why would you think that? Saab is going to stay exclusively FWD and AWD. The "BLS replacement" will be RWD. Two different types of vehicles with their own characteristics, no? And - plausibly - two different types of customers...

 

The comments on bringing SLS here are good ideas, but it would only be the interior that could be moved here. The length of the SLS has hosed it's ability to pass US and probably European crash standards. I would say the interior would help, but the sales of the STS are so low, I am betting even a great interior wouldn't have helped much. The extra length might have been the key, but it would have been extremely expensive to make that car pass crash tests here, if it could have even been done at a reasonable final weight.

Really a Zeta replacement for this car and DTS makes the most sense in the long haul. So long as they make sure it is the most sophisticated incarnation of Zeta that ever exists. I would guess they will move to fancier drivetrain bits and such than any other Zeta on top of having more available features and a higher grade interior. Done correctly, I really think a premium Zeta done at a bit higher grade than the Chinese park Avenue and the Senator could make a great Cadillac to battle both larger and smaller competitors cars. I really think it should start at $45-50k and option upto ~$85k with a V at $90K. That would make it's top end version priced in the same range as base models of same sized competitors kinda like the CTS. As long as it is as good or better than the competition, who cares that it is cheaper. The price will give them volume until they can find a way to move the less wealthy buyers into Buicks. Right now I am just thinking too many DTS buyers probably wouldn't pay a lot more for a car, but also wouldn't be interested in a smaller car like the CTS or even STS. So really, this car needs to be more of a DTS replacement than an STS replacement. It's dynamics and RWD will be the only aspects that make it similar to STS. Pretty sure size, ride, and isolation will be more along the DTS or probably better.

 

Nick, I am afraid I cannot agree with you. Audi A4 is a direct competitor for the 3er and C-Klasse, and so is the 9-3. While we may talk about two or more tiers in the executive class, the compact executive class is one. GM already shot themselves in the foot offering two cars in the segment, one of which suffers from not enough investment, and the other doesn't sell at all.

I believe Cadillac should limit themselves to what they do best and are known for - large luxury vehicles - and hone their offerings to perfection. For me, a lineup like it is today (sans BLS) is perfectly alright. I even think the "slotting between classes" thing with CTS being slightly larger than compact executives but smaller than executives, and (potentially) a shorter STS and longer SLS flanking the executive and luxury classes, might be a good idea to go around common perceptions and get away with "discount" pricing.

Saab should be the decisively European brand, also concerning markets covered, but at top-notch at that. With Opel/Saturn, as well as Pontiac and Buick, both of which I believe GM should take globally, there is little room for more "midmarket" brands within GM. Saab should build worthy BMW 1er, 3er and X3 rivals.

PS. Replying to jasero - crying over the spilled milk, if GM really wanted to make a stab at the luxury market, they could've justified the expenses into bringing SLS up to worldwide standards. I also believe the Zeta is essentially Sigma-light, or the other way around, with both platforms stemming from an originally common development programme. I was secretly hoping GM would reintegrate them (with a shortened Zeta becoming Alpha for Camaro and the smaller Pontiac) in order to realize economies of scale (of course Sigma would still carry more "content").

 

To be quite honest, that SLS interior doesn't look that great. I know, people have been extolling its virtues for ages, but it looks only incrementally better than the STS interior (I suppose the fact that it's a little more elegant/less modern contributes to that). I see fiddly buttons, plood, and an unattractive colour combination. The vents are nice, though, and somewhat mirror the SRX interior. However, it doesn't look all like it's cracked up to be.

The CTS, on the other hand, is nice...

 

What would they call this thing? I actually really like the STS and DTS and CTS naming scheme, even if I prefer real names.

 

I beg to differ 100%. The CTS is a step forward, but in the wrong direction. The steering wheel, with the largest eraser in the world as the centre, is rather awful, and overall I agree with those who said the interior reminds them of the alien queen.

The SLS's classy touches might have been just what Cadillac lacked to break into the European market - just like the added length for the price.

Watch what happens to the STS sales - they're going to evaporate. And it's not only because of the interior.... the exterior although handsome is way too bland. It just disappears next to the CTS, which has tremendous presence. The car has been trumped badly and needs a complete redesign, not just a Chinese interior.

I haven't heard any complaints about the steering wheel other than "can't get wood yet". All I've heard are footbrake, no Bluetooth and cheesy sunroof cover.

Even the haters at TTAC had to admit they nailed the interior.

 

I beg to differ 100%. The CTS is a step forward, but in the wrong direction. The steering wheel, with the largest eraser in the world as the centre, is rather awful, and overall I agree with those who said the interior reminds them of the alien queen.

The SLS's classy touches might have been just what Cadillac lacked to break into the European market - just like the added length for the price.

You know your opinion of the CTS's interior puts you in a very small minority. Of course, your MO on these forums seems to be equal parts valid and intelligent insights, exaggerations and contrarian views just for the sake of taking a different position no matter how tenuous that opinion may be.

 

Since we are into the 2nd generation of the CTS, why is GM just now making these decisions?
There have been 3 Series, C-Class and an Lexus ES for years so why is GM dragging their feet?
Plus, the moment someone decided to increase the CTS size, a firm decision should have been made concerning the life or death of the STS & DTS.

GM should have been working these details out years ago!!

 

To all of you - there is world out there, not just the US. By making vehicles that sell great in the USA and don't sell at all elsewhere, GM changed Cadillac from an American-only luxury brand to an American-only luxury brand. I guess it takes more.

The SLS has just the right combo of classy touches and understatement it takes to succeed outside of the US. Sure it is a tad behind the times now, but then I'd expect it to be cheaper - and it is here NOW, as opposed to some imaginary replacement that might or might not come and be just as polarizing as the CTS.

Even the haters at TTAC had to admit they nailed the interior

Call me when people at UltimateLexusFansMBWhores&BMWDevotees.com will

 

Since we are into the 2nd generation of the CTS, why is GM just now making these decisions?
There have been 3 Series, C-Class and an Lexus ES for years so why is GM dragging their feet?
Plus, the moment someone decided to increase the CTS size, a firm decision should have been made concerning the life or death of the STS & DTS.

GM should have been working these details out years ago!!

This is what really ticks me off about GM. Piss-poor brand management (of which half the brands don't even need to exist) and horrible long term planning. While Toyota is planning for 20 years down the road and consistently executing it, GM can't even figure out the details for 6 months down the road. Truely Maddening.

 

I like the STS a lot, but I seem to recall that the DTS had twice the sales. That tells me people prefer FWD to RWD. I wonder if going to RWD could be a mistake. They already have the CTS.

 

That tells me people prefer FWD to RWD.

Rental companies prefer DTS discounts to the lack of STS discounts.

 

The DTS is a big boat.

Those old people who like big boats are still alive, and they don't have kids at home to spend money on. Granted, it should be Buick's responsibility to make a car like this now, it is a big seller.

I am sure Avis has something to do with it also.

 

I like the STS a lot, but I seem to recall that the DTS had twice the sales. That tells me people prefer FWD to RWD. I wonder if going to RWD could be a mistake. They already have the CTS.

if cadillac decide to compete against big boys (audi, bmw, mercedes) it will have to offer models with big HP number too. So it will have to offer AWD or rwd model. FWD and 350+ HP doesn't go together. Especially if they put new v8 ( i don't think GM is developing new DOHC V8 with over 350-400 hp just to put it in CTS only) or even bigger V12.

 

as opposed to some imaginary replacement that might or might not come and be just as polarizing as the CTS.

Cadillacs are supposed to be flamboyant. If you don't want flamboyant buy a Buick or Saab.

 

I like the STS a lot, but I seem to recall that the DTS had twice the sales. That tells me people prefer FWD to RWD. I wonder if going to RWD could be a mistake. They already have the CTS.

Has little to do with it. The DTS is larger, plays to the old-school Cadillac clientele, and has a bigger trunk which is just what livery/fleet customers are looking for. Plus, it's cheaper than most of the STS's out on dealer lots.


And the SLS won't cut it, guys. Cadillac needs to make a more radical departure from the STS than just a stretching and some make-up.

 

Where's the news here? We've only been hearing this for the past year that the STS and DTS were being combined into the XLS and that the BLS would come here as a 3series competitor. The news to me is the confirmation of a vehicle of the XLS to go against the Bentley...

What trips me out is the fact that the STS has sold 13,156 units with absolutely no marketing versus:

the Lexus GS300/430/450h 15,400,
the Acura RL has only sold 4,562 units all year,
the M35/45 has sold 15,033,
Audi A6/S6 7,636

and I am hearing nothing about them being cancelled. Furthermore it would make more since to simply combine the DTS, which is part of the old Caddy Philosophy and U never hear even me praise, with STS and still call it the STS... with a variant named SLS, which could be brought over or at least designed like the one from China (Below)with the new fascia (2008) and the Complete Chinese interior, put a more powerful engine option on the list to be over the NorthStar... like a LS3 (430HP) and give the Vseries a limited LS7 (505HP) run until the Ultra V8s come into play.

The combining of the 2 cars should have been done in the beginning when the new for 2005 STS came out in the first place. The DTS had already been on the market at the time for it full run and no longer fit in with the RWD moves. The DTS has sold 33,368 units this year and is in no way a sales flop . Also it must be noted ONCE AGAIN that the STS barely has any Fleet sales and the DTS is not the Luxury Fleet car leader.

in retrospect this should have been seen on the walls, since the CTS is now as large as the 5series and E-Class. Caddy HAS NOTHING in the 3series/C-class range in N.A. and the CTS only competes with them on pricing. It is now essentially going to be the THIRD piece of competition on the Dealer lots between the STS and DTS.

I'm betting the line up will be by 2010...:

The Entry Level BLS, RWD with a turboed 2.8L, 3.6L and a V8 (Vseries), Coupe and Convertible
The Mid Level CTS, RWD with a 3.6L, V8, Supercharged V8 (Vseries, and Diesel/Hybrid.. Coupe and convertible
The Top Level XLS, RWD with a V8, another V8, Diesel/Hybrid (and possible V12, but I see no point in this as the Ultra V8 is rumored to have a naturally aspirated Top-End of 600HP)
The BRX as a smaller SUV under the SRX
The SRX possibly redesigned on a modified Lambda
The XLR with a V8, another hi-Po V8 and a MCE that actually will address many of the issues people here have expressed about it.
The Escalade with V8, Diesel, and Hybrid.
and perhaps this ULS flagship

 

Cadillacs are supposed to be flamboyant. If you don't want flamboyant buy a Buick or Saab.

This IS flamboyant, Cadillac, and everybody likes it:

When you go flamboyant, you have to know HOW.

 

Well I would imagine with this announcement the next gen BLS will be sold both in the US and Europe. Right now it's redundant to have both the STS and CTS since their almost the same size and share the exact same rivals ie: 5-Series, E-Class. With that said I'm hoping GM execs are still working to develop the ULS as the Cadillac flagship. This is the only way I believe Cadillac will be taken seriously in the luxury market.

 

OK...seems like GM is taking a page out of Chrysler's playbook. Take two under appreciated models...one a sporty sedan (300M), the other a large, well purchased luxury sedan (Concorde)....combine positive attributes to get an in-between vehicle that should appeal to both an older (35-60) and younger (25-35), more affluent crowd...then introduce luxury trim levels that clearly differentiate the vehicle from basic, up-class, to powerful and loaded.

It should work, but the new vehicle must be exciting. And GM must be prepared to lose some long-time customers to gain more new customers that appreciate updated modern designs with additional "helpful" technology.

And like the newer 300, there are people that love it, and those that absolutely hate it. But at the end of the day, both of those groups of people knew something about the product and had been discussing it. That created additional product recognition and advertisement that DCX (at the time) could not buy. This is what Cadillac needs to do.