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Surveys are nice, but Big 3 still have Toyota as the benchmark

By Daniel Howes / The Detroit News

So the latest slug of dependability rankings from J.D. Power and Associates shows that Toyota and Honda still lead and Detroit is gaining ground.

Long live J.D. Power!

At the rate General Motors Corp. is improving — two fewer defects per hundred cars per year — it’ll catch up to where Toyota is today in about 28 years. Ford Motor Co. is improving faster, or so the survey suggests, meaning it would need just six years. DaimlerChrysler would need 10 years.

That’s if all things remain constant, which they never do. Once Detroit finally arrived on such hallowed ground, Toyota and Honda wouldn’t be there because their mantra of continuous improvement (which is more action than talk) wouldn’t allow it.

Let’s put a few things in perspective:

First, surveys like the quality rankings from J.D. Power and the plant efficiency studies of Harbour & Associates are indicators that Detroit is getting its collective act together, that the Germans are slipping and that Japan’s Big Two are the standard by which others judge themselves.

But they’re only indicators. Most folks don’t comb through press releases before wandering into a dealership to buy a new car or truck. They look around parking lots, sensing what stirs their emotions and sense of practicality; they talk to friends, family and neighbors and recall their own personal experiences; and they run the numbers.

Second, the most important surveys of all are market share and profitability. By those measures, Detroit is struggling to keep up. That’s not pro-import boosterism or anti-Detroit spin. With a few exceptions, that’s a fact.

REALITY?

 

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GM has long stuggled with initial quality when it comes to new releases, i.e.97 Malibus,91 Park,02 Envoy

Lets hope they have done thier home work with all of the new models coming out. So they don't have to use the pitch " MOST IMPROVED " in initial quality
 

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That’s not pro-import boosterism or anti-Detroit spin. With a few exceptions, that’s a fact.


This guy says that he is not pro-import, but all he mentiones is.......

Toyota
Toyota
Toyota
Toyota


Yadayadayada....

As far as I can tell from looking at the survey results didn't GM surpass every other damn automobile manufacturer that sells cars in this great country except Toyota, Honda and Porsche?......so thats not an acheivement to trumpet? This guy is all doom and gloom for Detroit, he does not mention one positive thing.

Toyota cant be reached...etc..etc..Honda cant be reached....


etc etc

That’s if all things remain constant, which they never do. Once Detroit finally arrived on such hallowed ground, Toyota and Honda wouldn’t be there because their mantra of continuous improvement (which is more action than talk) wouldn’t allow it.
GM has arrived on that "hallowed ground".......its knocking right on their back door, what were GM's rankings in 1980? 1984? 1994? Look at those numbers and then tell me GM does not have a "continuous improvement "mantra.

GM has it's sights set on 1 and can reallistically acheive that goal.


Didnt GM finish above Nissan, Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, Jaguar, Infinit, Mazda, etc..etc..etc..in the rankings? So how could GM not be able to surpass Toyota and Honda in quality rankings when it has already passed everyone else in quality rankings?

Several down and three to go.


These are all things that this flake could have said in the article...but he choose to go negative and give the typical "doom and gloom" article.
 

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Initial quality/reliability is definately important, but it's preceived quality (look & feel) that sells cars on the lot. This is where Detroit has long lagged behind the fpreign competiton.

This is why, despite what JD Power says, NO consumer would believe a GM car is more reliable than a VW. Just look at them!

Ford has been narrowing the gap fast, and with the latest gen' products seems to even have surpassed the Japanese in fit and finish (although the credit likely goes to Mazda and Ford Europe).

Chrysler and GM are making gains, but still have a long ways to go. DCX seems to think mounting last-gen Mercedes switchgear in cheap, hard plastic dashs is a big improvement, but they're only going to get people's attention when they start building great interiors from the ground up. GM is even harder to understand, since Opel in Europe has lots of great interiors: how much money could they really have saved by swapping out the great Vectra interior for the cheap-feeling Malibu one?
 

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How about this.
Since Toyota and Honda are so GREAT!
Why not get rid of every other company and just have them two.
After all they can't be reached in quality or anything else.

Hey,
Here's a better idea lets just make this site Toyotainsidenews.com. Then we can talk about how great Toyota is all the time!


Toyota and Honda :plasma:

GM :D
 

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There was an article on quality rankings today in the USA Today that was very confusing and I would say pro-Toyota. It was poorly written in that it spun the data so it became confusing as to who was at the top of what "part" of the quality list, and wether they were looking at entire companys, or just the individual brands.

At one point it said something like "Paraphrase" "Toyota, with the help of Lexus, has top honors" but went on to say that Toyota was down, that Buick and Cadillac had higher quality rankings, but that was of course to the "old folks" that don't complain much.

I find it hard to believe the "old folks" don't complain much. My grandfather would take back his chevy's for anything, squeek, uncomfortable seat, etc. He made the dealer add sound deadening material one time to a lumina. And as far as the younger set being more picky about their cars...I doubt it. In my pre-30 days, I thought I was king of the world in every crappy car I had.
 

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Originally posted by 72lemanscvbl@Jun 30 2004, 09:14 PM
At one point it said something like "Paraphrase" "Toyota, with the help of Lexus, has top honors" but went on to say that Toyota was down, that Buick and Cadillac had higher quality rankings, but that was of course to the "old folks" that don't complain much. 
You could spin this stuff by saying, "Toyota owner buy their cars as if they are appliances and therefore do not complain when small things fail as long as it gets them from point A to point B."

or how about this

"Honda and Toyota owners have been so conditioned to think that their cars are perfect that if something does go wrong, they don't fault the vehicle, but themselves for being too hard on the car."

It's all spin by the press.

The good news is that the big 3's rapid improvements in initial quality will really start bearing fruit over the next few years on these dependability surveys when the 3 year old cars are the newer models that are rated higher today.

Mark
 

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:lol: Toyota is better because they put computer chips in the engine. :lol:

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GM rules!

250000 KM's 96 Monte Carlo
Repairs since new= 1
Water Pump
Number of times left stranded in -30C Canadain weather = 0
Write an initial quality article on that! :angry:
 
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I wonder why they don't list the quality numbers by brands instead of company. Like seperating Buick and Cadillac, from Chevy, and Pontiac. If one wuz to look at brands instead of by company, Toyota's and Honda's lead would not be so huge. Cadillac, I believe was right around 126 failures in their new Lansing plant.

Hmmm..... <_<
 
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Hmmm....

** 1998 Olds Intrigue, owned 3 years - 1 failure, the drivers sunvisor would not stay clipped up when placed out of the way. Replaced under warranty.

** 1992 Pontiac Grand Am (first model year for new design), owned 7 years - 1 failure, replaced head on 4 cylinder engine. Had 40,000 miles but Pontiac replaced under warranty. A problem I believe with how the aluminum heads were forged. (One of GM's first forays into aluminum engines) Believe it was fixed in future model years.

I don't think my van, Firebird and Jimmy count, because those were built before GM started getting their "act together" around the early 90's or so. However, when I traded in my Jimmy it had 140,000 miles on it with a still strong engine and transmission. Lots of small stuff was failing however, switches, knobs etc.
 

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New Mexico:

Would you say that the Intrigue with its sunvisor failure and the Grand Am with its bad head should be ranked with one problem each? Shouldn't problems like that be weighted...like the sunvisor getting 0.1 of a problem and the head getting 1.5 problems (just throwing out numbers)?
 

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I would love to see a system that would weigh the problems. A little wind noise is nothing to a dead motor. I don't know if such a system could be developed as many of it would be subjective.



For the record. 1999 alero replaced motor, replaced radio, replaced sun visor attachment. all at 5K miles
 

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Originally posted by tgagneguam@Jun 30 2004, 08:06 AM
Surveys are nice, but Big 3 still have Toyota as the benchmark

By Daniel Howes / The Detroit News

So the latest slug of dependability rankings from J.D. Power and Associates shows that Toyota and Honda still lead and Detroit is gaining ground.

Long live J.D. Power!

At the rate General Motors Corp. is improving — two fewer defects per hundred cars per year — it’ll catch up to where Toyota is today in about 28 years. Ford Motor Co. is improving faster, or so the survey suggests, meaning it would need just six years. DaimlerChrysler would need 10 years.

That’s if all things remain constant, which they never do. Once Detroit finally arrived on such hallowed ground, Toyota and Honda wouldn’t be there because their mantra of continuous improvement (which is more action than talk) wouldn’t allow it.

Let’s put a few things in perspective:

First, surveys like the quality rankings from J.D. Power and the plant efficiency studies of Harbour & Associates are indicators that Detroit is getting its collective act together, that the Germans are slipping and that Japan’s Big Two are the standard by which others judge themselves.

But they’re only indicators. Most folks don’t comb through press releases before wandering into a dealership to buy a new car or truck. They look around parking lots, sensing what stirs their emotions and sense of practicality; they talk to friends, family and neighbors and recall their own personal experiences; and they run the numbers.

Second, the most important surveys of all are market share and profitability. By those measures, Detroit is struggling to keep up. That’s not pro-import boosterism or anti-Detroit spin. With a few exceptions, that’s a fact.

REALITY?

:mrt: This guy is a moron, and the people that believe him are to. Domestic car dealers could be up to the foreign dealers right now, they choose not to. Give me a break "PEOPLE", we have been doing this automobile thing a lot longer.
 
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hudson - true, that may be a good way to weigh it. I'm not sure "how" the ranking system is set up.

geronimo - wasn't '99 the first year for the Alero? At 5k miles it was repaired under warranty correct?

It seems that today, the things people complain about are not what they used to complain about. Cupholders being off a little bit, or the "feel" of knobs and switches are nothing compared to the differntial falling off or a complete engine failure.

Again it is subjective. Compare the interior trim on the new GMC Envoy and that with a Lexus SUV or an Acura MDX.

I'm just not sure how much "blood can be squeezed out of a turnip" with regards to these quality numbers. At some point one would think that with assembly lines being "pretty" consistent across manufacturers' that these numbers would level off and be pretty equal across companies.

:bounce:
 

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Here's how it works. Your building a really good mousetrap. Stunning design, powerfull, very reliable. You have competition but it's limited. Then they all get lazy. We have loyal clients, so we can skip a little here skip a little there, those little companies that are showing up with those cheap immitation mousetraps are a joke. We can live off our former victories for ever. LAZY GM SUITS WITH FAT PAYCHECKS, PENSIONS AND NO IMMAGINATION ARE WHAT CAUSED THIS TO HAPPEN. I find it amusing that Chrysler has a major hit (300) with a real American style automobile and it took the Germans to build it.
 
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