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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i seriously hope these werne't already posted here. i feel like a badass scooping everyone else on these pics :D

BTW, these pics were found on CZ28.com i think
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
picture number 2
 

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That STS also has the available "adaptive cruise control", look at the Cadillac badge in the grille real close.

This seems to be a fully loaded V8 AWD STS, it looks like it has moonroof too.

Maybe it's being driven by a magazine or some GM higher up?


What I want to see is the 3 color heads up display!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Originally posted by silverado_13@Apr 23 2004, 04:55 PM
way to go!!! Where did u find this car?
i'm a mod on another forum, and someone posted the pics. for the rest of the story, read my first post.
 

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Originally posted by johnd89@Apr 23 2004, 03:44 AM
it's so nice to have a v6 and awd option, but for me v8 rwd is the winning ticket!
ABSOLUTELY! RWD rules!

Really, why is that everyone seems to want AWD these days? OK, so when it snows, AWD can get you moving. But it doesn't help you stop. Indeed, it probably gets the average driver going into nothing but trouble when he discovers the car goes much better than it stops. Besides, traction control (particularly on a FWD car, not that I want one) gets you about 95% of what AWD is good for.

And on the downside: it's (1) heavy, (2) saps power and, correspondingly, (3) sucks gas, (4) it introduces new maintenance requirements, and (5) offers new opportunities for mechanical trouble, (6) deprives you of that nice kick from behind when cornering (seriously - I've driven a bunch of AWD Audis - they feel confident, but totally artificial).

I don't get the appeal.
 

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Snow belt residents are retarded. Thats the only way I can put it.

I wish GM and others would put more money into marketing RWD to get rid of the stigma about it. You don't need FWD or 4/AWD to go in snow. Traction control and tire technologies are great in this day and age and eliminate most if not all of the problems that people like to bitch about RWD.

Then again people get exponentially stupider with every generation... and any monkey with a ride to the DMV can get a license these days. Asking them to buy a set of tires for the winter or actually driving half way decent is like asking them to kill and eat their first born. <_<
 

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Originally posted by AMcA@Apr 24 2004, 12:35 AM
Besides, traction control (particularly on a FWD car, not that I want one) gets you about 95% of what AWD is good for.

There is no way that FWD and traction control comes even close to AWD. Can you get around with it? Yes. But it doesn't have anywhere close to 95% of AWD capability? No way.
 

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to put it in simple words, a good awd setup on a car not too heavy, with well matched winter tires and good weight distribution will only push the limits more and when it will eventually let go, it will offer less feedback than a fwd or rwd, and this will happen at much higher speeds.

yes, awd is plenty capable, but some take that for granted and think they're king of the road. also, on a heavy suv with big wheels, they won't invest in winter tires ("too expensive, I have awd anyway") and end up crashing it into someone else...
 

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AWD isn't a replacement for good sense, but it does add a margin of safety in quite a few driving situations. Pulling out onto a busy road when it's slippery is much safer with AWD since you can accelerate to match the speed of traffic much more quickly. Cornering is safer too, as moderate application of the throttle is much less likely to break the drive wheels loose. And for people living on steep roads or with steep driveways where it snows, it's an invaluable convenience.

Arguing against AWD because some people don't use good judgement with it is like arguing against having powerful cars because it only encourages people to drive fast, or against anti-lock brakes because people will get over-confident if there brakes don't lock up when they are driving on snow. It increases the certain capabilities of a car just like a more powerful engine or larger tires increase certain capabilities.
 

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true, awd is good to have, but from a personal prefference standpoint, I would always trade it because of the disadvantages pointed 5 posts ago.

one more point wich will clarify how usefull awd on those luxury cars is (and why the bmw 7 series and mb s class don't offer it): when it snows, people who can afford it will probably use the wife's suv!!
I see plenty of older caddy's for sale wich never were used in winter!
 

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And true, everybody's got to make their own judgement as to whether an option on a car is worth it to them. But some in this thread seemed to be leaning towards saying that AWD is never worth it and GM is foolish for offering it, and that's not true.

Good point about people wealthy enough to buy these cars. When it snows, the STS probably won't be their only option in the garage.
 

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Originally posted by MelvinJ@Apr 24 2004, 02:49 AM
. . . .    And for people living on steep roads or with steep driveways where it snows, it's an invaluable convenience.

Arguing against AWD because some people don't use good judgement with it is like arguing against having powerful cars because it only encourages people to drive fast, or against anti-lock brakes because people will get over-confident if there brakes don't lock up when they are driving on snow.   . . . .
Melvin does have a point about people with steep driveways - they do have good reason for AWD. So, OK, there's a solid 1% of the car buying public.

And, as a guy with an high powered car, I appreciate his point about how this argument looks something like the ranting of Naderites who inveigh against sports cars as leading their drivers into temptation. I would, however, distinguish AWD by noting that it creates a false sense of confidence in precisely the conditions when false confidence is most hazardous. A guy in a hot car knows how fast he is going. The guy doing his usual 50 mph down a snowy country lane in his AWD car is likely quite clueless about how seriously he is over-driving his brakes and cornering capability. (Anyone who skis has seen this: the SUV - rarely the car - on its side or roof or in the ditch on the way down the mountain.) And learning the lesson is going to be messy and expensive.

But my key objection is aesthetic: AWD cars feel fake. Audis, secure as they may be, always seem to feel like they're on tippy toes. It's like driving a video game. A proper RWDer feels far more like a hunk of metal, riding on rubber and playing a game with the laws of physics. The enjoyment that game can bring is the thing that will most likely keep me from buying an AWD car.
 

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Originally posted by AMcA+Apr 24 2004, 08:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AMcA @ Apr 24 2004, 08:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MelvinJ@Apr 24 2004, 02:49 AM
. . . .    And for people living on steep roads or with steep driveways where it snows, it's an invaluable convenience.

Arguing against AWD because some people don't use good judgement with it is like arguing against having powerful cars because it only encourages people to drive fast, or against anti-lock brakes because people will get over-confident if there brakes don't lock up when they are driving on snow.   . . . .
Melvin does have a point about people with steep driveways - they do have good reason for AWD. So, OK, there's a solid 1% of the car buying public.

And, as a guy with an high powered car, I appreciate his point about how this argument looks something like the ranting of Naderites who inveigh against sports cars as leading their drivers into temptation. I would, however, distinguish AWD by noting that it creates a false sense of confidence in precisely the conditions when false confidence is most hazardous. A guy in a hot car knows how fast he is going. The guy doing his usual 50 mph down a snowy country lane in his AWD car is likely quite clueless about how seriously he is over-driving his brakes and cornering capability. (Anyone who skis has seen this: the SUV - rarely the car - on its side or roof or in the ditch on the way down the mountain.) And learning the lesson is going to be messy and expensive.

But my key objection is aesthetic: AWD cars feel fake. Audis, secure as they may be, always seem to feel like they're on tippy toes. It's like driving a video game. A proper RWDer feels far more like a hunk of metal, riding on rubber and playing a game with the laws of physics. The enjoyment that game can bring is the thing that will most likely keep me from buying an AWD car. [/b][/quote]
I'm sure that novice AWD drivers can be fooled by the acceleration available to them under slippery conditions, although I have yet to see the higher percentage of 4WDs in the ditches that everyone (who doesn't have a 4WD) seems to talk about (and I do ski). But there are plenty of people who get in trouble with high-powered cars too. If they didn't, it wouldn't cost any more to insure a Z28 than it does to insure a Monte Carlo. But I still don't want them to stop building high-powered cars.

When the roads are slippery, I'm generally one of the fastest ones on the road, but it doesn't matter if I'm in my 4WD Suburban, or my FWD Intrigue (or even one of my Probe GT's I used to own). I grew up driving in these conditions and know how to read them.

As for the feel of AWD cars vs. 2WD, I must confess that I've never owned (or even driven that I can remember) an AWD car. I've had 4WD trucks since I was 16, which sadly, was many years ago now, but the nuances of "feel" are somewhat lost on them.
 
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