[syr74]

Its amazing how all the Mustang lovers have dis-appeared for the hills

No disappearing, just not paying as much attention to a war that doesn't even rate as a skirmish anymore. Sales of both models are well off historical numbers and not just because the market has evolved. As a long time Mustang fan I'm very disappointed in the new Mustang in many ways, but then I've really been disappointed in the Mustang for quite some time so that isn't new. Does that mean I think the Camaro has won? No, in fact the Camaro is a bigger offender in many of the areas that the Mustangs lets us down than is the Mustang. The cars have gotten too big, too bland stylistically, too isolated from the driving experience, and too plain boring. Higher skidpad numbers in a Camaro that almost nobody will ever drive beyond 7/10 don't change any of that, and a faster Nurburgring time isn't what will fix either car.

When one of these two companies really starts taking this market as seriously as it deserves I'll probably start chiming in again in meaningful amounts, until such a time I'll likely not have very much to say and, IMO, both sides of the equation will continue to lose. There is no winner here for those of us who really love ponycars.

 

[syr74]

I'm starting to think that aluminum intensive construction, and possibly even turning the Mustang into a brand within a brand offering a couple to a few different cars, might really be the answer for Ford. As for the latter I think this is a future that may make sense for the Corvette as well, but I'm not sure Camaro fits a multi-car line strategy as well.

 

[syr74]

Unfortunately, this isn't really that much fun anymore, it's just plain sad. To put it bluntly, compared to what they ought to be, both cars suck.....out loud. There is a reason both companies would be thrilled with any domestic sales year that tops 100k units and it isn't because the market evolved away from cars like this.....it's because the cars evolved away from the market. Make no mistake, the Camaro and Mustang are our Commodore and Falcon, and I fear we'll find the most hardcore of the faithful on both sides continuing to cheer on their respective make as they each devolve these cars into something completely unsellable in almost any market over the next several years.....just like the Commodore and Falcon.

 

[syr74]

I'm calling this a case of "my team isn't winning, so the whole game sucks".

You would, it couldn't actually be that these aren't good ponycars (they aren't). Honestly, the fact that everything comes down to quarter mile times and track numbers is what proves my point. Can you tell me which car was faster, the 68 428 Mustang or the 68 396 Camaro? I know, and realistically we both do, it's the Mustang. So, if we know that, then riddle me this batman. Why would half the Camaro enthusiasts on earth still crawl through Hell and nine feet of solid rock to have a 68 Camaro SS with a 396 4-speed under the hood since, using your 'logic', the 68 Camaro is a raging pile because it couldn't outrun the competition. Then ask yourself why the new cars can't manage that kind of loyalty or those sales numbers. Don't worry, I'll wait for you and Fenwick to take enough time to get what I'm saying.....and I understand that in both cases that may take a while.

 

[syr74]

Variants really are the best way to go, like saying corvette or Mustang be a brand, where are you going to get the dealer network? the separate business infrastructure to support the new brand?

I'm not suggesting something nearly as far out as you're thinking. I'm literally talking about brand within brands, multiple Mustang models still sold at Ford branded dealerships. Though, to be fair, Corvette might actually benefit from a move to a distinct dealership body while I don't think it would make much difference with the Mustang.

The camaro has moved from sucks to Exellent. The Engineering effort put in to make it what it is, is just beyond believe. There is great engineering bwoys over in the Camaro team. This particular Camaro will take all non M BMW's down, and it does not even claim to be the ultimate driving machine... That is incredible.

Chevrolet needs to start getting credit for their effort. What they have done has began to earn them respect around the world.

But credit for what exactly? The Camaro has 928 syndrome, the old Porsche GT having often been accused of being a great car but a terrible Porsche. For me, Camaro is in the same boat, it's a well executed car but it's a terrible ponycar. Restyle the ZL1 inside and out and turn that same basic car into a new age Buick Grand National and I might find it easier to get onboard, but as it stands it's trying to be too many things at once for ponycar greatness IMO. Mustang, it's more like a ponycar but it's still too clunky and feels somewhat phoned in from the perspective of being a truly fun and interesting car to my eye. I think they were too worried about european acceptance and not nearly worried enough about carrying the gauntlet of the great classic models of years past.

These cars perform well on paper but, IMO, that's all they do. They don't have character, or soul. There is reason why I'm looking at getting back into a 69 Mach 1 and dropping the coin for a new F-150 as a daily rather than seriously looking at a new Mustang, and it isn't because I'm not a ponycar customer.

 

[syr74]

You're right, I don't know what you're trying to say. But I am certain that if Ford wasn't trailing in this segment, you'd be spiking the football.

That's because you think we're similar and that would be your reaction. Trust me, we couldn't be more different.

However, my best guess as to the sentiment you're trying to conjure in order to deflect the Mustangs poor showing, goes something like this: modern pony cars don't have the intrinsic appeal of the cars from the sixties cause they are too big and expensive and I have a nostalgic fetish for a different era, blah blah damn kids get off my lawn, etc

.

And this displays why we are so different perfectly. After giving it serious consideration, the problem isn't that Mustang costs too much, it's that it doesn't cost enough in some ways and yet it still manages to offer too little for what it does charge....just like Camaro in fact. Full size trucks are currently much better executed overall and a much better analog to how ponycar models should be structured and marketed in concept...if on a smaller and more manageable level.

I think the problem here is that your team has had such a difficult time getting into the endzone lately that you take any slighting of a perceived win too seriously.

 

[syr74]

How quick are these two cars, in your opinion?

If this is going to be some lame comparison about how fast the new cars are, save it. My whole point is that these cars are supposed to be about much more than just speed, but speed is really all that they have let. If those other intangibles don't matter anymore then why don't we all just drive 500hp, all wheel drive Fusions and Regals? Fast is fast...right?

Put more simply, if more speed is what I want I can make a 69 Camaro SS as fast as anything else in a straight line and handle better than I'll ever drive it on a public road with the judicious application of a few modifications that modernize different components of the car. Nothing short of the hand of God himself will make the new Camaro 1/10th as cool or as good looking as the 69 SS, it just doesn't have it in it. And that boys and girls, is the problem.

 

[syr74]

Having grown up with the first generation pony cars and having owned one of them back in the mid seventies...( a worked 1969 firebird 350 convertible) I can assure you the latest generation cars are far superior in every respect....

The old versions are cool.....as collector cars etc...but the latest and greatest versions really are the best ever made....

We can agree to disagree ...

Enjoy

Having owned classics myself, and sampled the newest offerings, I suppose we just have very different definitions of what being best entails. I'll just close with the reality that in a new car market larger than it was in the 60's and exponentially so, all three current ponycar offerings combined wouldn't make a good sales year for most years of classic Mustang or Camaro. I agree, we'll have to agree to disagree.

The same could be said about a Jeep TJ not being as cool as a Commando, a new Malibu not being as cool as a Nomad, and a Ford GT not being as cool as a GT40. If "cool" is the measuring stick, everyone might as well close up shop and quit making cars.

Old cars just have more appeal. That doesn't make the new Mustang or Camaro any less of a pony car.

And again, I disagree. I think the lack of character is due to a lack of imagination at the big three relative to these cars.