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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Good news
The Audi A3 will be heading to America by mid-2005. It is a small hatchback based on the VW Golf. VW officials said that the hatchback will head to America soon, and AutoWeek confirmed that VW said that. For more information on Audi A3 pictures: Audi A3 Website It might be in German but they do have pictures.

Bad news
BMW will not release a hatchback version of the 1-Series expected for 2005-2006 model year, though they will release the convertible and sedan
 

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Its nice and all, but if I were to buy a luxury vehicle, I wouldn't want it to be a gussied up Golf...just my opinion though.
 

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Originally posted by TaHoE@Mar 16 2004, 03:59 PM
Its nice and all, but if I were to buy a luxury vehicle, I wouldn't want it to be a gussied up Golf...just my opinion though.
if all people shared your sentiment, Lexus wouldn't exist today.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
a gussied-up Golf doesn't sound good....and a gussied-up Camry doesn't sound good either. I mean, you can load up a Toyota Camry at $30K and get every single good feature in the car that Lexus offers. Hopefully, we'll see a different interior, though!
 

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I am glad to hear Audi is bringing more of their line to the USA.

:bounce:
 

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Originally posted by gmwsag@Mar 21 2004, 10:06 AM
a gussied-up Golf doesn't sound good....and a gussied-up Camry doesn't sound good either. I mean, you can load up a Toyota Camry at $30K and get every single good feature in the car that Lexus offers. Hopefully, we'll see a different interior, though!
On the Lexus remark:

Yes, you can get about all the same features in the Camry as in the ES but there is a point to the ES330. The 3.3L is standard in the ES(whereas the Camry has it ONLY for the SE), the ES has more sound deadening materials, the ES has more leather inside, and its MARK LEVINSON audio system sounds much better than the JBL one in the Camry, and you get the Lexus "prestige". There is a point to the ES.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
they could add that to the Camry easily.....rctennis, and not only that: over 87% of the features of a Camry are on a Lexus
 

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One of the key arguments against the VW Phaeton found in the adjacent 17-page thread will carry-over here. That is, if VW should not tread on Audi's turf in the upper-end of the market, then Audi should not tread on VW's turf at the low end. Minimize overlap in the dual-brand portfolio. However, another of their key arguments against the Phaeton would support the A3 in the U.S. market. Namely, that brand image is key, and for those aspiring to a brand, the VW group needs an Audi offering to counter the 1-series. As good as the Golf's perceived quality and performance has become, some need those little rings on the trunk.

We've come to know someone who's been quite outspoken against the Phaeton as :zippy:... Suddenly, :zippy: will have to dismantle one out of two of his key arguments. Should prove interesting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
You do have a point desmo...but please do tell Toyota that. They're barging in on Lexus' low market. You can get a full-loaded Camry for $30K and an Avalon for $35K. A Lexus ES300 preferably equipped is about $35K. Don't you think that's too close?
 

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Originally posted by gmwsag@Mar 26 2004, 07:02 PM
You do have a point desmo...but please do tell Toyota that. They're barging in on Lexus' low market. You can get a full-loaded Camry for $30K and an Avalon for $35K. A Lexus ES300 preferably equipped is about $35K. Don't you think that's too close?
Toyota has addressed the Avalon problem, which is why the upcoming Avalon is supposed to be "worth it".
 

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Originally posted by gmwsag@Mar 27 2004, 01:02 AM
You do have a point desmo...but please do tell Toyota that. They're barging in on Lexus' low market. You can get a full-loaded Camry for $30K and an Avalon for $35K. A Lexus ES300 preferably equipped is about $35K. Don't you think that's too close?
No, not too close, because the Avalon is a bigger car. There will be price overlap between smaller premium models and larger mainstream models. The pricing distinction just needs to exist when comparing cars in the same segment.
 

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Originally posted by desmo9@Mar 22 2004, 12:21 PM
One of the key arguments against the VW Phaeton found in the adjacent 17-page thread will carry-over here. That is, if VW should not tread on Audi's turf in the upper-end of the market, then Audi should not tread on VW's turf at the low end. Minimize overlap in the dual-brand portfolio. However, another of their key arguments against the Phaeton would support the A3 in the U.S. market. Namely, that brand image is key, and for those aspiring to a brand, the VW group needs an Audi offering to counter the 1-series. As good as the Golf's perceived quality and performance has become, some need those little rings on the trunk.

We've come to know someone who's been quite outspoken against the Phaeton as :zippy:... Suddenly, :zippy: will have to dismantle one out of two of his key arguments. Should prove interesting.
<_< <_<
You are tiring if not just a bit pretentious sometimes.

1) VW has no business being in the high-luxury segment. They do not have a brand name to do so. They are currently being laughed at in that segment. It's ridiculous. Plain ridiculous to pay $92K for a VW.
2) Audi can move down market because their brand name is synonymous with luxury. People who can afford $20-25K cars generally CANNOT afford a $65-92K car. So they would want a car that is "premium," even though it's a rehashed Golf.

I have no need to dismantle ANY of my arguments because my arguments are based on 2 tenets:
1) People who can afford a $65-92K car don't want a cheapo brand like VW. (ie - the VW Phaeton DEBACLE)
2) People who can only afford a car in a $20-30K range would love an Audi just for the sake of having an Audi and telling all their friends they have an Audi.

I have always said that it is easier for a brand to move DOWN than UP.

Furthermore, don't you believe that VW launching a $50K sedan is eating into Audi's territory? And Audi decides to launch their $25K car in the US, eating into VW's territory. Don't you find it a bit disturbing that Audi gets a rehashed Golf... and VW gets a Maserati?? I mean... which line is the "Premium" brand???
 

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Originally posted by gmwsag@Mar 26 2004, 08:02 PM
You do have a point desmo...but please do tell Toyota that. They're barging in on Lexus' low market. You can get a full-loaded Camry for $30K and an Avalon for $35K. A Lexus ES300 preferably equipped is about $35K. Don't you think that's too close?
Toyota has always had problems differentiating ES and CAmry. THough, they have gotten better at it.
Camry's actually MSRP in the low $20s. Avalon is at around $30K. ES starts at $32K. IS starts at $29.9K GS starts at $39K. LS starts at $56K.

Toyota has done a very good job at keeping the overlap at a minimum. They're not launching a $46K Toyota LS430. :blink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Camry's actually MSRP in the low $20s. Avalon is at around $30K. ES starts at $32K. IS starts at $29.9K GS starts at $39K. LS starts at $56K.
mgescuro....no one gets a Camry in the low $20s. They get a Camry for $25K-$30K. Toyota once was the king (after Honda) of cheap cars that wouldn't break into pieces. Now, they're moving the prices up, so customers will stay with them, yet pay a higher price....A Camry is an ES. An ES is a 'gussied-up' Camry, just like you said exactly to tahoe's statement, you do have to believe that Toyota's Camry and Lexus' ES are the same. Toyota did a little over here and there and made each car look different, yet most of the stuff being the same.
And so you know 'feedback', the average car buyer knows that the Lexus ES is the Toyota camry. My proof is a consumer who confronted me with ???'s about the Camry & ES.
 

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Originally posted by gmwsag@Mar 28 2004, 10:50 AM
Camry's actually MSRP in the low $20s. Avalon is at around $30K. ES starts at $32K. IS starts at $29.9K GS starts at $39K. LS starts at $56K.
mgescuro....no one gets a Camry in the low $20s. They get a Camry for $25K-$30K. Toyota once was the king (after Honda) of cheap cars that wouldn't break into pieces. Now, they're moving the prices up, so customers will stay with them, yet pay a higher price....A Camry is an ES. An ES is a 'gussied-up' Camry, just like you said exactly to tahoe's statement, you do have to believe that Toyota's Camry and Lexus' ES are the same. Toyota did a little over here and there and made each car look different, yet most of the stuff being the same.
And so you know 'feedback', the average car buyer knows that the Lexus ES is the Toyota camry. My proof is a consumer who confronted me with ???'s about the Camry & ES.
Umm... that's why I said MSRP. No one ever buys a car at MSRP.... it's already assumed you're going to pay more. :rudolph:

As I've also said, Toyota has historically had problems differentiating the Camry and the ES. People who buy the ES typically will pay $5-10K more depending on options over the Camry. But it's still a Camry. It just has better sound inulators, better leather, the bigger engine standard, and a better brand.

Does it really all come down to price? Perhaps. But I think it all comes down to brand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Tell that to someone who thinks that way....price is what its all about (and a good warranty, too!)
 

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Originally posted by mgescuro+Mar 28 2004, 10:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mgescuro @ Mar 28 2004, 10:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-desmo9@Mar 22 2004, 12:21 PM
One of the key arguments against the VW Phaeton found in the adjacent 17-page thread will carry-over here. That is, if VW should not tread on Audi's turf in the upper-end of the market, then Audi should not tread on VW's turf at the low end. Minimize overlap in the dual-brand portfolio. However, another of their key arguments against the Phaeton would support the A3 in the U.S. market. Namely, that brand image is key, and for those aspiring to a brand, the VW group needs an Audi offering to counter the 1-series. As good as the Golf's perceived quality and performance has become, some need those little rings on the trunk.

We've come to know someone who's been quite outspoken against the Phaeton as :zippy:... Suddenly,  :zippy: will have to dismantle one out of two of his key arguments. Should prove interesting.
<_< <_<
You are tiring if not just a bit pretentious sometimes.

1) VW has no business being in the high-luxury segment. They do not have a brand name to do so. They are currently being laughed at in that segment. It's ridiculous. Plain ridiculous to pay $92K for a VW.
2) Audi can move down market because their brand name is synonymous with luxury. People who can afford $20-25K cars generally CANNOT afford a $65-92K car. So they would want a car that is "premium," even though it's a rehashed Golf.

I have no need to dismantle ANY of my arguments because my arguments are based on 2 tenets:
1) People who can afford a $65-92K car don't want a cheapo brand like VW. (ie - the VW Phaeton DEBACLE)
2) People who can only afford a car in a $20-30K range would love an Audi just for the sake of having an Audi and telling all their friends they have an Audi.

I have always said that it is easier for a brand to move DOWN than UP.

Furthermore, don't you believe that VW launching a $50K sedan is eating into Audi's territory? And Audi decides to launch their $25K car in the US, eating into VW's territory. Don't you find it a bit disturbing that Audi gets a rehashed Golf... and VW gets a Maserati?? I mean... which line is the "Premium" brand??? [/b][/quote]
Don't know just what's pretentious about my arguments. Maybe you picked the wrong word?

A whole paragraph from you there with little real info. So you agree with the A3 coming to America or not? Based on your arguments against the Phaeton....

* You would agree with a U.S.-bound A3 because VW needs an Audi compact to take on the 1-series, 9-2 and others. These people savor "brand" and "image", so the VW brand can't do it alone.

but, in contradictory fashion...

* You would NOT agree with a U.S.-bound A3 because it would make the Audi-brand overlap the VW brand all the more. Just as Phaeton muddies the waters at the higher price points, the A3 swould do it at the lower price points.

Yeah, what's tiring about this is wading through all the contradictions.
 

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Originally posted by desmo9@Mar 28 2004, 06:47 PM
Don't know just what's pretentious about my arguments. Maybe you picked the wrong word?

A whole paragraph from you there with little real info. So you agree with the A3 coming to America or not? Based on your arguments against the Phaeton....

* You would agree with a U.S.-bound A3 because VW needs an Audi compact to take on the 1-series, 9-2 and others. These people savor "brand" and "image", so the VW brand can't do it alone.

but, in contradictory fashion...

* You would NOT agree with a U.S.-bound A3 because it would make the Audi-brand overlap the VW brand all the more. Just as Phaeton muddies the waters at the higher price points, the A3 swould do it at the lower price points.
Lemme put it to you in simple terms that you can understand... :zippy:

1) A3 should come to the US, if 1-series and A-Class is US bound.
2) Audi, BMW, Mercedes, should realize that a cheapo car bearing their name can cheapen the overall brand. Jaguar can attest to that.

I don't believe these cars should come to the US. The effect is amplified for AUdi because
1) VW occupies that price range.
2) VW is entering Audi's price range.
3) There is now confusion between Audi and VW that won't be fixed any time soon.

And you keep dodging my question. DO you think a $50K VW/Maserati is worth the time and expense to launch as a VW?? Why isn't it being launched as an Audi?

And you're right.. pretentious isn't the word... arrogant is more like it. :zippy:
 

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Originally posted by gmwsag@Mar 28 2004, 04:59 PM
Tell that to someone who thinks that way....price is what its all about (and a good warranty, too!)
Getting a good price... in the brand you want is what's paramount.
People don't choose a Daihatsu because it's an awesome car. It's because its cheap. But if this person had the cash, he/she would not choose a Daihatsu. THis person would choose a better brand.
 
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