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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anti-EV Op-Ed Claims Are Running On Fumes: EVs Idle Better, Longer (msn.com)
Scott Case

January 11, 2021

Electric vehicle (EV) technology and infrastructure are still in their early days – we should all recognize and appreciate that. But the opinion article published by Charles Lane of the Washington Post this week was a disingenuous attack that came from a place of ignorance, at best. As CEO of Recurrent, a company that has studied on-road telematics across over 8,000 EVs spanning 50 million EV miles in all manner of climates, let me share real-world data to educate Mr. Lane and other EV cynics.

The op-ed’s contention was that gas cars fare better in 20-hour emergency situations in freezing temperatures. The real math is that idling a gas car with a full tank, a driver can expect around 30 hours of warmth, while many popular EVs can surpass that. The most popular EV, the Tesla Model 3, has a “camp mode” that allows the car to efficiently maintain cabin temperature even while the vehicle is off. Reports show that it uses about 2% of the battery capacity per hour in freezing temperatures. The Model 3 owners’ group on Facebook was quick to point that out.

A quick idling experiment by a Northern California-based team member in his own Model 3 shows that blasting the heat (“hi” mode; car temp above 85 degrees) uses only 6% battery capacity in an hour. As reported, no one would ever want quite this much heat.

Continues at link
 

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EVs don't idle.
It's a figure of speech

there would be some small power loss just having it turned on

I actually read this article today and was going to link it myself as the numbers were very low to keep heat in an EV at only 2% power loss per hour

Thats fairly efficient

I would be interested how much it takes to cool a cabin at high temps in the summer as well
 

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I saw some back and forth going on about the topic of gas vs. electric and which can idle longer. Here's the answer.
And................ as I said before, the "wild card" is how much charge (or gas) you have when you get stuck.

In an EV, and with away from home charging rates being more expensive than re-charging at home, and the time it takes to re-charge, and the fact that you can't re-fill your ICE at home.............. "Everything being equal" I'd say you are much more likely to be running low in an EV than an ICE.

If you are on a trip and you don't have enough to make it home:
- In and ICE; Do you put just enough gas to make it home, or do you fill up your car completely?
- In an EV; Do you charge just long enough to make it home, or sit there for an extra hour and completely re-charge?
(paying the "higher than home" rates?)

BONUS WILDCARD - In an EV you decide to completely re-charge in-case you get stranded for the arriving storm, that extra time, it was caused you to get stuck; the guy with the ICE vehicle, made it all the way home before the roads closed-up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
And................ as I said before, the "wild card" is how much charge (or gas) you have when you get stuck.

In an EV, and with away from home charging rates being more expensive than re-charging at home, and the time it takes to re-charge, and the fact that you can't re-fill your ICE at home.............. "Everything being equal" I'd say you are much more likely to be running low in an EV than an ICE.

If you are on a trip and you don't have enough to make it home:
  • In and ICE; Do you put just enough gas to make it home, or do you fill up your car completely?
  • In an EV; Do you charge just long enough to make it home, or sit there for an extra hour and completely re-charge?
(paying the "higher than home" rates?)

BONUS WILDCARD - In an EV you decide to completely re-charge in-case you get stranded for the arriving storm, that extra time, it was caused you to get stuck; the guy with the ICE vehicle, made it all the way home before the roads closed-up.
Certainly a lot to consider, but, I've never once considered the survivability of sitting in my car for 20 hours in the cold as a criteria for a purchase. However, since I am one who likes to be prepared, I'd make sure I have a full charge before-hand from work/hotel/mall or wherever in the least invasive approach to my time before I go drive into a snowstorm.

I'll cast my lot with the efficient BEV in the "stranded for 20 hours on a snowy highway" scenario.
 

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And................ as I said before, the "wild card" is how much charge (or gas) you have when you get stuck.

In an EV, and with away from home charging rates being more expensive than re-charging at home, and the time it takes to re-charge, and the fact that you can't re-fill your ICE at home.............. "Everything being equal" I'd say you are much more likely to be running low in an EV than an ICE.

If you are on a trip and you don't have enough to make it home:
  • In and ICE; Do you put just enough gas to make it home, or do you fill up your car completely?
  • In an EV; Do you charge just long enough to make it home, or sit there for an extra hour and completely re-charge?
(paying the "higher than home" rates?)

BONUS WILDCARD - In an EV you decide to completely re-charge in-case you get stranded for the arriving storm, that extra time, it was caused you to get stuck; the guy with the ICE vehicle, made it all the way home before the roads closed-up.
That is probably why there were "all the EV's from what I heard about that disaster on the highway from the other day" of all those stranded vehicles because they were most likely as you say: the ones with just enough charge to get home and then completely recharge it. Also ;) I haven't delved into the footage of the situation a great deal to accurately say that's how it was, I'm just going by hear-say from a few people and things.
 

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And................ as I said before, the "wild card" is how much charge (or gas) you have when you get stuck.

In an EV, and with away from home charging rates being more expensive than re-charging at home, and the time it takes to re-charge, and the fact that you can't re-fill your ICE at home.............. "Everything being equal" I'd say you are much more likely to be running low in an EV than an ICE.

If you are on a trip and you don't have enough to make it home:
  • In and ICE; Do you put just enough gas to make it home, or do you fill up your car completely?
  • In an EV; Do you charge just long enough to make it home, or sit there for an extra hour and completely re-charge?
(paying the "higher than home" rates?)

BONUS WILDCARD - In an EV you decide to completely re-charge in-case you get stranded for the arriving storm, that extra time, it was caused you to get stuck; the guy with the ICE vehicle, made it all the way home before the roads closed-up.
That's if you're away from home which is a less likely scenario. For the majority of people you leave home every day with a full battery vs whatever happens to be in the gas tank of a ICE vehicle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
That's if you're away from home which is a less likely scenario. For the majority of people you leave home every day with a full battery vs whatever happens to be in the gas tank of a ICE vehicle.
I think people get hung up on "filling up the tank" because that's how we do it with gasoline. But we do that because we can't top off our gasoline car at home, the office, the mall, restaurant, hotel, etc.. Sure, the tech might not be quite there for people who drive hundreds of miles every day, ICE will be their answer for now, but the rest of us will be fine with BEV.

Though, I'm certain there will be those mornings when you go to your car and realize you forgot to plug it in the night before....
 

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Though, I'm certain there will be those mornings when you go to your car and realize you forgot to plug it in the night before....
I only did that twice with our '14 Volt. Good thing it had a back up generator so I could still get to work.
 

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Certainly a lot to consider, but, I've never once considered the survivability of sitting in my car for 20 hours in the cold as a criteria for a purchase. However, since I am one who likes to be prepared, I'd make sure I have a full charge before-hand from work/hotel/mall or wherever in the least invasive approach to my time before I go drive into a snowstorm.

I'll cast my lot with the efficient BEV in the "stranded for 20 hours on a snowy highway" scenario.
It takes a unique situation, to be stranded as these people were; freeways cutting through a remote area, if you take surface streets, your car may be stranded, but you aren't going to be stranded, if it means abandoning your car and walking to safety, vs. freezing to death, you will walk to safety. Even most "commuters" aren't going to get trapped, because the roadways cut through urban and/or suburban areas. I believe the I-95 closure started on a Monday afternoon, where the commuters would be heading home for the day......

"I better stop and completely recharge before I head home, instead or plugging my car in when I get home" would be a unique thought; unless your drive home is ~100 miles and you are heading out into a snow-storm, I guess?

That's if you're away from home which is a less likely scenario. For the majority of people you leave home every day with a full battery vs whatever happens to be in the gas tank of a ICE vehicle.
It was a combination of events that made for a very bad situation, one being a rather remote area, but I doubt there were many "daily commuters" Washington DC to Richmond, VA is ~110 miles one-way with little in-between.

This is (approximately) the portion that was closed/blocked.

Map Ecoregion Line World Screenshot
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It takes a unique situation, to be stranded as these people were; freeways cutting through a remote area, if you take surface streets, your car may be stranded, but you aren't going to be stranded, if it means abandoning your car and walking to safety, vs. freezing to death, you will walk to safety. Even most "commuters" aren't going to get trapped, because the roadways cut through urban and/or suburban areas. I believe the I-95 closure started on a Monday afternoon, where the commuters would be heading home for the day......

"I better stop and completely recharge before I head home, instead or plugging my car in when I get home" would be a unique thought; unless your drive home is ~100 miles and you are heading out into a snow-storm, I guess?



It was a combination of events that made for a very bad situation, one being a rather remote area, but I doubt there were many "daily commuters" Washington DC to Richmond, VA is ~110 miles one-way with little in-between.

This is (approximately) the portion that was closed/blocked.

View attachment 65218
It's definitely a tough call and one most of us most likely (and hopefully) never experience in our lives. As you said, a ton of variables and depends on the person. I tend to think ahead in situations like this and will never knowingly head into a snowstorm with a small amount of charge (or gas) - but many people don't think like that and will just hop into their car and go. Probably the "right" answer will differ from person to person.
 

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It takes a unique situation, to be stranded as these people were; freeways cutting through a remote area, if you take surface streets, your car may be stranded, but you aren't going to be stranded, if it means abandoning your car and walking to safety, vs. freezing to death, you will walk to safety. Even most "commuters" aren't going to get trapped, because the roadways cut through urban and/or suburban areas. I believe the I-95 closure started on a Monday afternoon, where the commuters would be heading home for the day......

"I better stop and completely recharge before I head home, instead or plugging my car in when I get home" would be a unique thought; unless your drive home is ~100 miles and you are heading out into a snow-storm, I guess?
IMHO most commuters I would expect to have charged there car before setting off to WORK and 50/50 chance plugged in @ work so IMHO the chance of a COMMUTER having a high level of charge is greater then "ICE" cars as almost everybody drives till almost out then stops for fuel
I would also assume most "early adopter" EV owners are more "cautious" with there driving / routing due to "range anxiety"
 

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It's definitely a tough call and one most of us most likely (and hopefully) never experience in our lives. As you said, a ton of variables and depends on the person. I tend to think ahead in situations like this and will never knowingly head into a snowstorm with a small amount of charge (or gas) - but many people don't think like that and will just hop into their car and go. Probably the "right" answer will differ from person to person.
But the way the media exaggerates any and all news, especially weather ("45 million Americans are potentially in the path of a massive, approaching storm!" .... and then you get some flurries). How many times do you have to hear "news" stories like that before you quit believing them? And it becomes "The boy who cried wolf". Until that one day comes, when the wolf is real.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
But the way the media exaggerates any and all news, especially weather ("45 million Americans are potentially in the path of a massive, approaching storm!" .... and then you get some flurries). How many times do you have to hear "news" stories like that before you quit believing them? And it becomes "The boy who cried wolf". Until that one day comes, when the wolf is real.
Ha! Yes, definitely not a perfect system - I ended up with and extra 30 gallons of gas I bought for my generator this past summer when a tropical storm was supposed to come through. It shifted path and we had very little wind. I finally used up all that gas by the end of "leaf" season. I always err on the side of caution, but, plenty of people tune out the frequently overhyped and wrong weather reports. However, those are the same people that'll be caught on the highway with 1/16th of a tank of gas or nearly no battery charge - so, regardless of gas or battery, they'll always be knocking on someone else's window to see if they have gas/electric/heat.
 

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IMHO most commuters I would expect to have charged there car before setting off to WORK and 50/50 chance plugged in @ work so IMHO the chance of a COMMUTER having a high level of charge is greater then "ICE" cars as almost everybody drives till almost out then stops for fuel
I would also assume most "early adopter" EV owners are more "cautious" with there driving / routing due to "range anxiety"
Welp, if you one-way commute is 100+ miles, you probably aren't very smart, but speaking for myself, if I'm about to jump on a long stretch of remote highway in the middle of a snow storm, I'm going to have a full-tank of gas, as well as, boots, hat, gloves blankets and food & water.............

Ha! Yes, definitely not a perfect system - I ended up with and extra 30 gallons of gas I bought for my generator this past summer when a tropical storm was supposed to come through. It shifted path and we had very little wind. I finally used up all that gas by the end of "leaf" season. I always err on the side of caution, but, plenty of people tune out the frequently overhyped and wrong weather reports. However, those are the same people that'll be caught on the highway with 1/16th of a tank of gas or nearly no battery charge - so, regardless of gas or battery, they'll always be knocking on someone else's window to see if they have gas/electric/heat.
30 gallons extra!? Couldn't you just burn it in your cars?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Welp, if you one-way commute is 100+ miles, you probably aren't very smart, but speaking for myself, if I'm about to jump on a long stretch of remote highway in the middle of a snow storm, I'm going to have a full-tank of gas, as well as, boots, hat, gloves blankets and food & water.............



30 gallons extra!? Couldn't you just burn it in your cars?
Yes, I thought about putting it in one of the cars, but I knew I was going into the fall and use a lot of gas with the leaf blower - so my gas stockpile saved me a bunch of trips to the gas station. Of course I use fuel stabilizer too - so no concern of the gas going bad.
 

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And of course everything depends on how conscientious the driver is about fuel/charge load. If, judging by the way they drive and text their BFFs LOL OMG! LOL! I'd guess a lot of people don't pay a lot of attention to the gas gauge or the lektrik gauge. For the lektriks, they need to watch the video of our intrepid VP on the proper way to fill up the tank on a lektrik vee hikle. Listen for the swooshy sound.

And then, if you're full of charge or gas, it depends on the size of your battery or fuel tank and your critter's fuel usage rate. And it depends on if the driver keeps the heat going continually or if they turn the engine on and off in order to save fuel. So making a hard and fast rule or statement regarding gas vs. electric is IMO problematic. I wish they still sold diesel cars in the USA. I love the range and the torque that a diesel supplies. If my Soul had a diesel, its skimpy 14.2 gallon fuel tank wouldn't bother me so much. But thanks to our noble allies at VW, and I had a VW Golf diesel, these critters are no longer available.
 
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