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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

Actually, I could just see the Headlines: "The quintessential Aussie car, turns to Korea for help". How many loyalists would be concerned by that?!!
How loyal do you want to be?

I could be way wrong, but isn't a contemorary 6-speed auto currently manufactured in Albury for use in a range of Ssanyong 4X4s and the like

France or Korea, or maybe Holden should look @ 67c to the dolla'
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

I'll buy in.

I would buy the 180kw engine with the 5 speed. I may buy the 180kw engine with the 4speed. I'd rather buy the 195kw with the 5speed. I'd love to buy the DI 225kw with a 6speed.

Re the Captiva 5speed - it is an Aisin unit and interestingly (to me anyway) 5th gear is direct, not an overdrive. I'm not sure that it would be easily utilised in the Commie as the Cappy has an east-west engine and default is FWD.
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

How loyal do you want to be?

I could be way wrong, but isn't a contemorary 6-speed auto currently manufactured in Albury for use in a range of Ssanyong 4X4s and the like

France or Korea, or maybe Holden should look @ 67c to the dolla'
Development of the EAII and on Aussie 4speed auto by BTR?
Stick 'em in! (I know it isn't that simple).:)
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

It's all rhetorical of course. GM is a financial cot-case and the people that buy Omegas and Berlinas don't drive them (ie: fleet managers).
You see, you got it in one. And it isn't just fleet managers, but Salary Sacrifice people, too.

I was still in the big T every year the user choosers whose lease was up would debate the Ford vs Holden thing - then get the cheapest per year. XR6Ts made big inroads the year they were $1500 cheaper than the SS, then Holden made the VY SV8 more SS-like and cheaper by a thou and it bounced back. XR8s did well for a year, then the year the CV8 came out, the XR8 was $18,000 per annum, $1500 dearer and dropped off the map. Telstra alone mopped up half the limited CV8Zs because they put Monaros on the lease list just before release, and Holden supplied a lot to Telstra fleet even though the orders were ordinary CV8s. That's one reason Holden made 1600 CV8Zs instead of 1200. People don't care about 1,2 or even 3 L/100 km when it's rolled into their totals. You only worry about the total cost per week of the lease. When VE came out, the lease price jumped.

These user-choosers are who make or break cars. Fleets get Omegas, private leasers get XRs/SV6s or SSs. The XT LPG Falc was hugely popular the year it was $11,500 a year, when the cheapest Commy was an Exec at $13,500. I know because that's when my co-worker got one.

When Costello raised marginal tax rates to $75K it hit this sector, because you had to be suddenly earning at least $95K, up from $75K to offset your marginal tax rates with the salary sacrifice. So that is making things worse for the Falcon, because it is higher % fleet sales.
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

I actually originally wrote 'economically' compliant but edited it. Anything can comply - how much money do you want to spend?.

Well maybe not a two-stroke Trabant or flathead V8. But the quesiton is what cost. Then you have to examine the money that will be spent not only in research but in tooling and production development and how long that will take to amortise over how many sales.

Unfortunately, the most motors Ford could ever envisage making would probably be around 50,000-60,000 per annum based on current sales of the Falcon/Territory and derivatives. It would take a long, long time to get that money back or prohibitively raise the price of the car, compared to just taking a developed motor in the Cyclone. Unfortunately once you make that decision, you can apply the argument to the whole vehicle, which is what it looks like Ford is doing.
Thanks for your response :)

So to comply the I-6 is a fiscal 'will not' rather than an engineering 'can not'. Although at current exchange rates you'd have to wonder about the cost of fully importing an engine vs local production. Remember it cost Holden plenty to import all those RB30 Nissan motors for Commodores in the later 1980s, at similar-ish exchange rates, while Ford cruised through with the low-cost locally produced I-6.
Holden and Ford already got special dispensation temporarilly to not comply with the new ADR meant to come in from 2006. Or you wouldn't be seeing new Falcons and probably no V8 Commodores now.
I didn't know that. Does this imply that ADR emission regs are stricter than USA regs, vis a vis G8 exportage?
People have asked why Ford doesn't simply make a aluminium crankcase to aid the cold-start warmup process: the answer is simple. You can't just cast aluminium into cast iron motor moulds because the process, plant, the engineering and parts need to be utterly different. Why Holden, which also has a foundry, instead gets HFV6 castings from O/S.
If alloy blocks are the future imperitive then your point on costings is well taken, in light of our industry's gloomy future - and particularly since these blocks would have to be imported. The prime reason for this is that ION (ex Castalloy) was the only outfit in the country which had that capability - Holden does not. But this once-great company no longer exists - due in the main as I understand it - to Holden screwing down their price with ION for Alloytech V6 into unsustainability, hence no more ION and a Holden 'own goal' from their now having to import Alloytech blocks from O/S.

However in the hypothetical it would have be interesting to compare the cost to Ford of converting their existing I-6 to all-alloy vs having to re-engineer the front-end of Falcon/Territory to accept a V6, including crash structure etc.
GM spent a lot of the eighties and nineties getting casting tech right for the Northstar and LS1 with well documented problems. Those engines would have cost hundreds of millions to develop, even though the LS series were originally directly developed alongside the iron truck motors and based off the SBC which shortcut a lot of component design; and the R&D money can be regained over millions of motors.
For trivia, GM's first all-alloy engine (a world first at those volumes) was the old BOP V8, later onsold to Rover. It too had a cast iron 'sister' the Buick 300cid, which morphed into a V6, which ended up in VN Commodores. Anyway that GM alloy V8 was also beset with quality problems, relating to GM's casting method, which Rover solved quite quickly by changing from pressure-cast to die-cast (or vice versa, cant remember which) and this excellent engine ended up in everything from world beating F1 racers to 8 ton trucks! Plus my P-76 ;)
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

Development of the EAII and on Aussie 4speed auto by BTR?
Stick 'em in! (I know it isn't that simple).:)
I suspect it is, but who knows due to zero local publicity. AU media must have better things to do.

In fact I'm unaware about anything to do with this this AU-produced major component. Not seen one report of it, let alone road-test. Am I the only one disappointed by the abysmal press coverage? Not to mention its non-use in AU cars...

If it goes into porky yet reasonably powerful 6cyl 4X4s, including turbo-diesel, then surely it must have a decent torque capacity, befitting 'Australia's Own' Holden V6?

Btw I recall one quality report of a few years ago, hidden in 'The Australian' business section, of BTR developing a 7-speed transmission with integral hybrid-drive :eek: but nothing since :(
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

...

For trivia, GM's first all-alloy engine (a world first at those volumes) was the old BOP V8, later onsold to Rover. It too had a cast iron 'sister' the Buick 300cid, which morphed into a V6, which ended up in VN Commodores. Anyway that GM alloy V8 was also beset with quality problems, relating to GM's casting method, which Rover solved quite quickly by changing from pressure-cast to die-cast (or vice versa, cant remember which) and this excellent engine ended up in everything from world beating F1 racers to 8 ton trucks! Plus my P-76 ;)
nota,

That last paragraph was indeed a very compressed 'evolution' of the original alloy V8!!!!

Mid 1960s when that engine shone in F1 and other forms of road/speedway racing!!

Mike
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

nota,

That last paragraph was indeed a very compressed 'evolution' of the original alloy V8!!!!

Mid 1960s when that engine shone in F1 and other forms of road/speedway racing!!

Mike
The 'little engine that could' alloy V8 was also the worlds first turbocharged production engine

In the 1960s my best mate's neighbour was a certain Frank Hallam. I still remember the Volvo 142 fitted with a Repco V8
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

Completely off topic, I went to see my neighbour this afternoon. He is a fabricator who rents our shed. His latest project is interesting: Holden 5.0 litre jammed into the front of a Mitsubishi light van! It's a v. tidy fit :yup:
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

OT reminds of that fully-functional Gasrite plumbers van

For those few who haven't seen .. IT (youtube)
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

Completely off topic, I went to see my neighbour this afternoon. He is a fabricator who rents our shed. His latest project is interesting: Holden 5.0 litre jammed into the front of a Mitsubishi light van! It's a v. tidy fit :yup:
Hilarious!

Has your neighbour forgotten to take his medication?:fall:
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

It's actually for a carpenter. There's a set of VX SS rims to go on it too. He's thought of just about everything including a sliding access panel to get to the dizzy (mounted on the back of course, great thinking :rolleyes:). I was surprised to see the drive shaft from the mitsu was a good 15mm thicker than the Holden part! There is still some chopping to do but it's well on the way. He and his other mate have some nice toys too. Cobra replica, Ducati, an old vette, 3 fords BOoo! Saturdays are full of wonderful noises :D
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

One thing, This old 4 speed is more economical with this engine right now. For what ever reason i don't know why but when they do there numbers (which matter to people on the window) It comes up better. Don't think there is another 4 speed auto in a car this size getting numbers this good anywhere?.
At this time I'm thinking holden is more worried about fuel numbers then power numbers.
It's a fact Holden have over the years neglected there 6's in favor of there mighty big V8's. As a Person who enjoys a 6. I'm not impressed much at the treatment of the 6's over the years. But this DI V6 should help.

But i think back to the V6 supercharger L67. Holden left it at 171kw for 7 years. An engine that can muster a god 300kw and run 14.5l/100 all day easy enough. An engine that could have made 200kw without braking a sweat. But when Andrew ask the question, Deal or no deal - holden said no deal.
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

Thanks for your response :)

I didn't know that. Does this imply that ADR emission regs are stricter than USA regs, vis a vis G8 exportage?;)
No, but measured differently. EU with lots of cold start short trips and small motors is harder on startup emissions. I was wrong with dates, Euro III was Dec 2006 and killed LS1, which is why last Monaros were all finished by then, even though GTOs were made until Aug-Sept IIRC.

Euro IV was Jan '08 and exemption lasts until 2010. GM had already moved on: L76/L98 with different port/combustion chamber shape complied with Euro III but won't with Euro IV - don't know what will happen come 2010.

Type approval process in future for Europe includes hardened rings cast into inlets so you can't port and polish or fit extra injectors. So critical has non-modified engines become. Motorcycles now come with stamped-compliant exhausts with model and year it is illegal to change.

If alloy blocks are the future imperitive then your point on costings is well taken, in light of our industry's gloomy future - and particularly since these blocks would have to be imported. The prime reason for this is that ION (ex Castalloy) was the only outfit in the country which had that capability - Holden does not. But this once-great company no longer exists - due in the main as I understand it - to Holden screwing down their price with ION for Alloytech V6 into unsustainability, hence no more ION and a Holden 'own goal' from their now having to import Alloytech blocks from O/S.
Nope - another myth. Ion went bust, because the directors knowingly overstretched acquiring BTR - then costs for the new plant to cast engine block went from $400-650m and they couldn't contain both. They actually broke Australian corporate laws by knowingly moving Ion - which was a viable business - from liquidity to being unable to make it's commitments.

Then they went to government (Bracks), banks and lenders and asked them to extend credit and accept deferred payments, thinking they would in preferrence to winding up Ion and getting 10c in the $. This practice is illegal. This sent suppliers to the wall, and the banks called in their debt. Ion directors are being prosecuted by ASIC. Ford got heaps of stuff off them too - bellhousings for starters. Not sure who they get 4.0 heads from, but they were certainly looking to source locally. It isn't as simple as saying 'nasty old Holden, ya boo sucks'. It certainly wasn't in their interest for Ion to go bust. It's probably part of the reason Ford is closing Geelong engine plant - maybe they had an alloy 3.5-3.8 Barra in the works, it certainly stopped them getting Cyclone.

However in the hypothetical it would have be interesting to compare the cost to Ford of converting their existing I-6 to all-alloy vs having to re-engineer the front-end of Falcon/Territory to accept a V6, including crash structure etc.
No-one in the world is designing I6s for passenger cars - even BMW moved the M3 motor to an alloy V8 and the sixes are alloy - they are physically much smaller. Even Daewoo's Epica unit is smaller than many fours.

GM has the 4.1 litre Atlas truck motor which is probably not long for this world. Long, large I6s are harder to get even temps which is critical to efficiency - Holden 202's were notorius for seizing/breaking pistons in cylinder no. 5. Partly castings, partly resonance, partly temp distortion.

You can achieve anything - but producing a small reduction in Co2 emissions might costs $millions more, and leave you with smoothness and drivability issues. Lots of people are noting DI motors are harsher, more diesel like especially at idle. That's the extreme high-pressure injectors setting up their own hydromechanical cadence as they slam fuel in, in microseconds.

Holden had OHC motors, six and eight, in the 80s in proto but they were probably shelved as doing the sums showed it wasn't viable to R&D for so small a market.
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

Economical in k/100l ? or economical in that they are cheaper for Holden to buy and stick in?
Both important in this day and age I guess.
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

I asked Holden about sticking in the Dual VVT donk, dutend for <1% co2 improvement and got a warm and fuzzy telecon from PR. Nice guy but couldn't give me a reason (which is fair enough). Sent me a Holden History book instead....apparently. It's in the mail. Couldn't squeeze him for a sportswagon but I'm working on it. :D
 

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Re: AIMS: Holden Launches 'Ecoline' Actice Fuel Management, LPG, Diesel & Production

I asked Holden about sticking in the Dual VVT donk, dutend for <1% co2 improvement and got a warm and fuzzy telecon from PR. Nice guy but couldn't give me a reason (which is fair enough). Sent me a Holden History book instead....apparently. It's in the mail. Couldn't squeeze him for a sportswagon but I'm working on it. :D
Haha all the best with getting the sportswagon. If you nag and stalk him you may get one just so you leave him alone.....that or a restraining order....
 
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