[eaton53]

I completely disagree. A V8 is not a requirement, would it be nice to have for a few years - sure - but Cadillac doesn't have a 7/S competitor, and thats where a V8 might be "required."

GM decided it wasn't worth the cost, and if they are putting the money towards advancing a E-Flex Sigma by a year, thats a good decision.

These old fashioned ideas of whats "needed" for any type of car are outdated. There are now many ways to make lots of power - and all have advantages and disadvantages. Its all going to be turned on its head within short order anyway. Just pretend electric motors are like DVDs and direct ICE power is like VHS.

Lets judge powertrains on power, torque, NVH and fuel economy - not some romanticized obsession with the past.

IMO, rather than E-Flex Sigmas you'll be seeing LS w/AFM powered 2-mode Li-Ion Plug-In Sigma and Zeta Cadillacs.

They've got the jump on everyone when it comes to powerful hybrids (the Lexus LS600h is a joke) and when those powertrains find their way into luxury cars they'll be the Standard of the World for power and fuel economy.

They can probably do this for less than the Germans charge for just an engine.

Speaking of the Germans, despite their investment in it I've read that they think the 2-mode isn't good enough (Translation: Not German) so they're tweaking (Translation: Overcomplicating) it. So who knows when we'll see it in any of their stuff or if it'll work great like I-Drive or COMAND (Translation: NOT!).

 

[mgescuro]

Do you own or lease it? If you own it, you lost a bundle driving it off the lot. You could have put your money on a Lexus or a BMW and do a better job of protecting your resale. If you lease it, read my previous opinion again.

I own it. It was bought new, but I acquired it from my dad. So it's Used... in a way.
I don't lease. Leasing is an incredible wasteful use of money. I keep my cars a long time.

 

[MrJamesMc]

I always wanted to see a comparison of the CTS to the Jag.
So, what do you do when you push the button to start your Jag and the pop-up shifter doesn't pop up, so you can't switch into drive? What do you do? The air vents not opening up is just an inconvenience, but the shifter? Jags have a bad reputation on reliability problems, and I can see that being an issue.(My grandmother had a Jaguar XJ and was always-always in the shop.) Plus some other bad experiences from other owners I have heard leads me to believe this could be an issue. The only motorized thing inside the Caddy is the screen, and that isn't needed to make the car go, you can live with out navigation.

I like them both, but thank God the CTS does more than just hold its own. Yah!

 

[91 s-10baja]

anyone watch the less than compelling video?
http://www.windingroad.com/multimedia/issue-32/Jaguar-XF-vs-Cadillac-CTS/

 

[SierraGS]

Re: A Proper Comparo: Jag XF vs Caddy CTS

If the CTS needs a more powerful motor, it definitely should not be an LS motor.

The LS motors are all about power and torque in an inexpensive manner. I would consider them the best motors in the world in that regard. This is not what Cadillac should be. Caddy's should have smaller displacements that rev high while being very refined. If the Ultra V8 is not happening then it should be a turbo V6.

And before the flaming begins, I have a 5.3L V8. It's an awesome motor. Sounds great, very good power, and very smooth. I also have a turbo 4 cylinder VW. When I first got it, I banged it off the rev limiter all the time because it revved so fast and did not even think of shuddering. My last motor is a mid 80s Audi 5 cylinder. I don't think there is a better sounding motor that was ever put in a small car. It's not powerful but runs beautifully with over 200,000 miles.

My point is that if I am going to spend $40,000+ on a car, I want a motor like the Audi or VW. It fits the type of car, it seems more expensive. The GM V8, while an awesome motor, cheapens the car. I would bet that someone who would actually buy the car (not the internet folk) would agree with me.

The 5.3L with 340 HP 350 lb/ft attached to 6-speed would be a fantastic CTS with the right equipment and $35,000 to $37,000 starting price.

This is the CTS Cadillac has needed to make since the CTS was introduced.

I have no problem with a $40,000+ Luxury car with a OHV V8 in it, after all the $340,999 Bentley Brooklands uses a OHV V8 based on a 1950's Packard design and Bentley was one of the best selling ULTRA LUXURY brands last year with over 10,000 sold worldwide.

Never understood why it is OK to have a OHV V8 in a $40-100K Corvette (that gets rev'd and driven aggressively) but not the same basic engine in a $35,000 Cadillac.

 

[Extreme4x4]

Do you own or lease it? If you own it, you lost a bundle driving it off the lot. You could have put your money on a Lexus or a BMW and do a better job of protecting your resale. If you lease it, read my previous opinion again.

You couldn't win your arguement with facts, so you resort to attacking what he bought???

Classy.

I understand the point on the LS engines, and agree. If you are trying to be considered on the same playing field as the BMW's, Mercedes, Audis, and Jags........... you have to play their game. You have to be quieter, ride better, be faster, have a nicer interior, and be a better value. Remember that Cadillac is still considered to be somewhat of a joke.............. especially around the snooty set. Thus, you are asking these owners to trade down. Thus, you have to provide a compelling reason for them to do so.

It is easy to get your typical Chevy and Ford buyer to buy one. It is a totally different mindset.

Create a worldclass V8, or TTV6 for the car. Get rid of its bad habits. Then wait. The reputation that Cadillac is going for takes time to come. You aren't going to get it by putting a truck engine in the car.

Remember that this is in no way a slight on the LS engines. They are great engines.

As far as the Vette goes, totally different market again. Nobody has ever accused the Corvette of being a luxury car.

 

[eaton53]

If you are trying to be considered on the same playing field as the BMW's, Mercedes, Audis, and Jags........... you have to play their game.

No, they don't.

Put an LS/2-mode in there and kick Euro ass with power, fuel economy and the all-important green image... and with what European motors cost, do it for less.

 

[mgescuro]

No, they don't.

Put an LS/2-mode in there and kick Euro ass with power, fuel economy and the all-important green image... and with what European motors cost, do it for less.

I totally disagree with you.
You need to play the same game your competitors are playing; otherwise, it will continually be the same story of Cadillac coming to a gunfight with a knife.

LS2 might out power and maybe out green the Euro motors, but it lack the refinement and technological advancements of even a mid-level Euro engine, not to even mention the top end Euro engines.

GM, by not playing that game, is only proving to the world that it CAN'T play that game.

And people wonder why GM cars like Malibu and CTS and most other GM cars can't gain in conquest sales? Because, not matter how improved these cars might be... they're still a technological pig compared to their Japanese and European counterparts.

 

[eaton53]

I totally disagree with you.
You need to play the same game your competitors are playing; otherwise, it will continually be the same story of Cadillac coming to a gunfight with a knife.

LS2 might out power and maybe out green the Euro motors, but it lack the refinement and technological advancements of even a mid-level Euro engine, not to even mention the top end Euro engines.

GM, by not playing that game, is only proving to the world that it CAN'T play that game.

And people wonder why GM cars like Malibu and CTS and most other GM cars can't gain in conquest sales? Because, not matter how improved these cars might be... they're still a technological pig compared to their Japanese and European counterparts.

What exactly is this "technological advancement" of a Euro engine when they're doing the same thing everybody else is doing? That's not "technological advancement"... that's "nothing special".

By putting in a 2-mode hybrid, they'd be saying we're changing the game and how it's played, this technology is the future and you're a bunch of outdated gas hogs. Provide all of the capability with none of the guilt.

 

[jlmartin99]

You couldn't win your arguement with facts, so you resort to attacking what he bought???

Classy.

I understand the point on the LS engines, and agree. If you are trying to be considered on the same playing field as the BMW's, Mercedes, Audis, and Jags........... you have to play their game. You have to be quieter, ride better, be faster, have a nicer interior, and be a better value. Remember that Cadillac is still considered to be somewhat of a joke.............. especially around the snooty set. Thus, you are asking these owners to trade down. Thus, you have to provide a compelling reason for them to do so.

It is easy to get your typical Chevy and Ford buyer to buy one. It is a totally different mindset.

Create a worldclass V8, or TTV6 for the car. Get rid of its bad habits. Then wait. The reputation that Cadillac is going for takes time to come. You aren't going to get it by putting a truck engine in the car.

Remember that this is in no way a slight on the LS engines. They are great engines.

As far as the Vette goes, totally different market again. Nobody has ever accused the Corvette of being a luxury car.

Extreme4x4,

Hang with me on this topic for a moment. Everyone talks as if luxury buyers are somehow methodical about their luxury car purchases, they are not.

I understand the luxury brand value perception and agree. I would not agree with the opinion that luxury buyers, are somehow thorough in their brand model comparables when selecting their luxury brand model of choice, on average they are not. I would submit to you, those of us who are auto enthusiast, auto reviewers or informed buyers have opinions regarding auto brands and their models based on our requirements or preferences or experiences.

However, when it comes to engines in luxury brand models, the vast majority of luxury buyers are not knowledgeable to understand or appreciate the differences, advantages, disadvantages of the various engine designs. That is not to say there are not luxury buyers whom understand the basic concept of 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 cylinder engines, but that is about as far as it goes. My experience has been, luxury buyers are no more knowledgeable than any other car buying segment. In fact, high end luxury buyers, say cars prices over $100,000.00, actually have a limited set of luxury brand models to choose from. And if you move down the price range, the number of luxury models improves and the numbers of luxury buyers increase as well, but their knowledge does not.

The question a luxury buyer asks themselves is; does this luxury brand model meet my requirements? And it will be a very small number of luxury buyers that will distinguish engine design preference, let alone knowledge of the comparable performance specifications, other than horse power. I believe these opinions in regards to engine design simply hold no value for luxury buyers.

JLM

 

[Extreme4x4]

While I do agree with you, to a degree........... I will submit this.............

How many luxury car buyers want to buy their "status symbol" with an engine associated with mulletheads, and trucks.

I realize I am being simplistic, but it is the perception out there.

Remember.......... perception is everything. The LS engines have the "perception" of being crude neanderthals, that suck gas, run rough, but make plenty of power.

It is what it is. No amount of creative wordplay on our parts is going to change that. Thus, to play the luxury car game, you have to play it right. All of the "well I'll show them," does not get the buyer they want, in the door. While it is all well and good to get the low end buyer, who aspires to luxury, to buy a Cadillac............ this is not what is ultimately going to make Cadillac successful as a luxury brand. In other words, it will not gain the panache. There will always be the stigma of "well, it is a good car.......... but......... "

That is all we are saying.

 

[PAULSTS1]

I enjoyed the article, the fairness with which both cars were evaluated, and the beautiful photographs of each car, especially the Azure Blue Supercharged XF at the conclusion of the article.

With what was said about the CTS, it looks like a winner, in terms of: Value for the money. While the base car as I have said is a bit uncomfortable for my frame, and the lack of a refined engine is a definite turn off for me, I await what the factory is going to turn out in 2009! If the V8 powered "V" does happen, my reservations may be answered favorably and the CTS may be on the menu.

Remembering my years ago, experience with Jaguar with fondness, the XF was a contender, but now that it has officially been sold to TATA Heavy Motors, I don't know? Driving so little as I do these days, I can play the wait and see option.

It makes me curious to know what the next DT7 will be like? With greater size and re-engineering I am wondering if my expectations would be better served?

:drive:

 

[PAULSTS1]

I always wanted to see a comparison of the CTS to the Jag.
So, what do you do when you push the button to start your Jag and the pop-up shifter doesn't pop up, so you can't switch into drive? What do you do? The air vents not opening up is just an inconvenience, but the shifter? Jags have a bad reputation on reliability problems, and I can see that being an issue.(My grandmother had a Jaguar XJ and was always-always in the shop.) Plus some other bad experiences from other owners I have heard leads me to believe this could be an issue. The only motorized thing inside the Caddy is the screen, and that isn't needed to make the car go, you can live with out navigation.

I like them both, but thank God the CTS does more than just hold its own. Yah!

Weekend Salutations Mr. James MC:

Let me clear up some issues, the previously mentioned reliability issues with Jaguar were for the most part dealt with years, and years ago when FORD, bought the Company! Those problems were never mechanical, the engines didn't seize, the transmissions didn't quit, they were almost always electronic in nature.

As a previous Jaguar owner (XJ-S V12), I personally never had the problems I heard about (from some of my fellow Jaguar owners), but I did know who to blame: Lucas Electronics. This was a major supplier to all British Manufactured Autos even Rolls Royce. The metal used in the wiring had unusually high levels of sulfur, which at times caused the fibers to break causing short circuits and system failures. If LUCAS had been in America, product liability suits would have bankrupted the company years ago. To it's credit FORD, never used them, so the problems subsided almost totally. In the last 8 years or so JD Power and Associates have rated Jaguar in the upper percentiles of reliability. So the issues with "Granny's car" is very much in the past, and at rest.

By the way....I had plenty of electrical issues with my 1984 Cadillac Seville that cost me plenty of dollars, until I found an Egyptian Engineer that fixed them finally. My newer Cadillacs are almost trouble free!

Faith can be a wonderful thing, when entered into by knowledge of the Truth (It can set you Free) and not just rehashed Rhetoric.:yup:

:drive:

 

[asrapid]

I was on a autoshow yesterday and i saw NEW CTS:bounce:. There isn't any dealership for Cadillac in my country but this dealership was from another country and they import hummer cadillac and corvette.
And there was corvette also (with ls3 engine and z06 with ls7):dro:
Cadillac CTS is stunning. I also saw new XF SV8 which is very nice car but not like Cadillac.IMO

I hope GM will put some engine with close to 400 hp, below V series in that beautiful car.
3.0 l V& with tt and 400 hp+, or 3,6 l v6 with 400 hp. Maybe even 4.9 l v8 ohv DI with tt and 400+ would work or some outsourced engine (let cosworth ,mclaren or someone else build them)....GM has choice.

 

[eaton53]

Remember.......... perception is everything. The LS engines have the "perception" of being crude neanderthals, that suck gas, run rough, but make plenty of power.

Those perceptions will go right out the window when a customer looks at the window sticker and sees 50% better EPA fuel economy (LS engines don't have any problem beating Euro motors on mileage without the 2-mode), hears complete silence at stop and proceeds smoothly and quietly on electric power.

 

[asrapid]

Yesterday when i was on the autoshow i didn't hear anyone complaining about size of the engine in the vette or being pushrod..maybe because this car is enigma here and most of the people doesn't know much about engine in that car.
But i think cadillac should offer buyers what they want. If buyers think that DOHC, DI twin turbo etc. is high-tech and next car which they buy should have that kind of technology then GM should offer them that kind of technology. So maybe GM should offer new twin turbo V6 DI instead LS based engine if this is what buyers wants, since for now there isn't DOHC V8 DI in plans.
Because in my country people who buys so powerful cars with 300+ Hp..well trust me-they can afford gasoline no matter what the price is. Now is almost 2 $ per liter.So fuel consumption is not their top priority.
Yes i would like to see 5.0 l V8 DI OHV with TT and over 400 hp(or something like this, since there isn't any new dohc V8 for now ) in non V, but if GM think buyers will rather have 3.x l v6 TT DOHC DI and if this is true and will rise the image of Cadillac..then they should use that V6 TT engine.

 

[jlmartin99]

Weekend Salutations Mr. James MC:

Let me clear up some issues, the previously mentioned reliability issues with Jaguar were for the most part dealt with years, and years ago when FORD, bought the Company! Those problems were never mechanical, the engines didn't seize, the transmissions didn't quit, they were almost always electronic in nature.

As a previous Jaguar owner (XJ-S V12), I personally never had the problems I heard about (from some of my fellow Jaguar owners), but I did know who to blame: Lucas Electronics. This was a major supplier to all British Manufactured Autos even Rolls Royce. The metal used in the wiring had unusually high levels of sulfur, which at times caused the fibers to break causing short circuits and system failures. If LUCAS had been in America, product liability suits would have bankrupted the company years ago. To it's credit FORD, never used them, so the problems subsided almost totally. In the last 8 years or so JD Power and Associates have rated Jaguar in the upper percentiles of reliability. So the issues with "Granny's car" is very much in the past, and at rest.

By the way....I had plenty of electrical issues with my 1984 Cadillac Seville that cost me plenty of dollars, until I found an Egyptian Engineer that fixed them finally. My newer Cadillacs are almost trouble free!

Faith can be a wonderful thing, when entered into by knowledge of the Truth (It can set you Free) and not just rehashed Rhetoric.:yup:

:drive:

Greetings PAULSTS1,
I would agree with your comments regarding Jaguars, past reliability issues and where they are today. And I would add when I evaluated Jaguar’s S Type along with Audi’s A6, BMW’s 545i, Cadillac’s STS V8, Lexus GS430, Mercedes-Benz's E Class; Jaguar’s S Type and Mercedes Benz’s E Class were eliminated due to style and design. The quality ratings of Jaguar, and BMW were trending up, however Mercedes-Benz was not progressing as well. All this known in regard to quality, would not have prevented me from purchasing a Mercedes Benz’s E Class if their style and design had met my requirements. In fact, I could apply that impression across the board to Audi, Jaguar, Infiniti and BMW at that time.

Now, more to my current evaluations and for my requirements in style and design, Cadillac remains at the top along with Jaguar, Aston Martin and to my surprise Audi. Audi’s S5 Coupe/ R8, Aston Martin’s Vantage, Cadillac’s CTS/ STS/ XLR and Jaguar’s XF/XK all moved into purchase consideration. At this point BMW, Lexus and Mercedes-Benz are no longer on my buy list of luxury brands, due to style and design. I used the NYIAS to finalize my evaluation. I am most impressed with Cadillac and Jaguar overall with Cadillac’s V Series (CTS, STS ,XLR) and Jaguar’s XF Supercharged/XKR. Cadillac is my first preference for purchase with Jaguar in the #2 position. But this says so much for Jaguar in my mind. Jaguar’s new style and design language is just as compelling to me as Cadillac’s to my eyes and I believe this will have a similar impact on Jaguar as the Art and Science design theme has had with Cadillac.

Due to my requirements for a premium luxury performance mid size sedan and premium luxury performance roadster, Cadillac and Jaguar offer the most compelling luxury models in this class.

JLM

 

[PAULSTS1]

Hi JLM:

It's so interesting that I just sent you a personal message...I looked up this thread and saw your response to last eves post.

I loved the styling of the Jaguar S type, it's almost feminine features are some of the most beautiful since the 1984 Cadillac Seville I bought to honor my late mother, who loved the car!

My major requirements are: Style, comfort, and engine refinement. Jaguar had all these and more. Remember; I was a British subject at birth, and my heart is never far from the Crown!:yup:

Well, so much for now, again.

:drive:

 

[mgescuro]

I am most impressed with Cadillac and Jaguar overall with Cadillac’s V Series (CTS, STS ,XLR) and Jaguar’s XF Supercharged/XKR. Cadillac is my first preference for purchase with Jaguar in the #2 position.

I would find it extremely ironic if we both ended up with XF's. :zippy:
As I'm still 2 years out... I'm going to keep my eye on the CTS MCE... I still need to make my way to the Jaguar dealership though to check out the XF extensively.

 

[jlmartin99]

Hi JLM:

It's so interesting that I just sent you a personal message...I looked up this thread and saw your response to last eves post.

I loved the styling of the Jaguar S type, it's almost feminine features are some of the most beautiful since the 1984 Cadillac Seville I bought to honor my late mother, who loved the car!

My major requirements are: Style, comfort, and engine refinement. Jaguar had all these and more. Remember; I was a British subject at birth, and my heart is never far from the Crown!:yup:

Well, so much for now, again.

:drive:

Hi Paul,

I look forward to your assessment of the Jaguar XF. I was very impressed with my review.

JLM