GM Inside News Forum banner
41 - 60 of 104 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
2,443 Posts
If Kia tried to do a Jaguar competitor, it would look like the XF. The cars styling just isn't up to what's expected of Jaguar. And in regard to the LS3 in a CTS; if the 3.6 DI is already getting dinged for uncompetitive NVH, imagine how the shivering pushrod motor will fare up against, say, BMW's DOHC V8s.
Exactly. I think the ultimate proof that Jag has gone downhill was yesterday. I don't get to spend much time with my mom now, so yesterday we went out for the day. Driving down the highway I spotted an S Type and said "hey look, a Jaguar". To my mother who knows nothing about cars, so much that she likely doesn't know how many cylinders her car has.

Her response? "That's a Jaguar, I thought those cars were supposed to look special?".

When someone who knows nothing about cars is disappointed in the looks of your expensive machines, you have a problem.

And quite frankly, the S Type looks a lot better than this thing does.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,443 Posts
And for the record their web page setup stinks. They tried to make a version of Adobe and failed epically.

What happened to simple, clean and fast loading pages? Every time you want to read on you have to friggin click, wait, and watch a damn advertisement. BS.
 

· Registered
2015 Cadillac XTS Platinum, 2014 Cadillac Saks 5th Ave ELR, 1989 Merkur XR4Ti, 1989 Merkur Scorpio
Joined
·
12,218 Posts
Re: A Proper Comparo: Jag XF vs Caddy CTS

Yes but what car will be your next purchase?
I'm seriously considering Cadillacs and the Ute. The STS will have a Northstar but if it had an LS engine that would be great.
If the V8 didn't do anything for the Impala, Lacrosse, and Grand Prix, why on earth would it help the CTS?
Well, obviously those cars are driven by the wrong wheels!!
I never said they did. However, drive BMW's turbo 6, its plenty smooth - more than the current LS engines.

Your second point just shows how bad the perception of that engine is - and GM has enough of a perception fight on its hands.
I've driven many BMW's.... They're the most overrated car out there and their "smoothness" compared to others is mostly hype - and that's coming from a former BMW owner. And they're down a lot of HP compared to an LS3.

I used to love them before the stupid gizmos and ugly stick beating.

I don't know where your getting this "bad perception" of this engine from.
Even the haters at TTAC like it and they don't like anything from GM.

The second point did nothing but show what is possible by tuning.
They can basically make it do whatever they want depending on the application.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
303 Posts
I think they would have an easier time meeting CAFE numbers with an LS as cylinder de-activation is more trivial with the pushrod design and more balanced in a 8cyl-4cyl design vs a 6cyl-3cyl design. Although, that being said, Honda seems to have figured it out in the van and V6 accord. I would love to see a DI, LS engine with Cyl Deactivation as a CTS option. 4.8 L with 350HP on 87 octane? Another $1000 option? Heck GM would make money on that since it has to be cheaper to assemble than the HF V6 with DI.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
45,485 Posts
and why do we still not get those sweet Taillamps in America
The clear taillamps are available on CTS and STS as an option. When you buy one, just tell the dealer you want the clear lenses.

If the two cars are really that close, then the Caddy is the clear, hands-down winner. A loaded CTS costs less than a base XF.

It amazes me that so many here and elsewhere have taken to not just ignoring that fact, but attacking anyone who event suggests that price is a factor in car-buying decisions.
Of course price is a factor when buying a car. But in the luxury market, price isn't as big a deciding factor as prestige, brand name, and image. In this market, you will find people willing to pay what I like to call the "Mercedes Tax" or "BMW Tax." People will pay $5-15,000 more for a comparably equipped competing car because it's got the Tri-Star or Propeller on the hood. Or in this case.... a Leaper.

A base XF is equivalent to a mid-range 5-series. Jaguar is actually a notch higher than the typical German sedans. What Jaguar is trying to reassert is their heritage for sportiness, unrivaled luxury, and style. They are more exclusive than the Germans.

What it also does show is that for Cadillac to really begin competing in this segment, they need to look at adjacent competitors other than the 5-series. Look at what E-class brings to the table. Look at A6, GS ... and now the XF. They are world class luxury cars. Can Cadillac play with the big boys??

In performance? Sure. No problem. That hasn't been an issue for Cadillac since the renaissance began 8 years ago. It's the little things that still plague Cadillac. And they are mentioned in the review: push button start, unrefined engine, noise levels, strange option packages, etc. All of it needs to be polished, so Cadillac can make even greater impacts on the market and the consumer.

So yes, at this stage, it is so much more than price.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
1,170 Posts
If anybody has any experience with Jaguar, they would most likely to agree your lucky if the engine starts. Jaguar compared to a Cadillac CTS? Umm, nothing to compare at this crossroad. I beat up some GM cars on certain aspects, but the CTS is clearly a world beater in it's class. Even the previous CTS was a good deal for performance and styling. I'm not sure of the reliability of this new Jag, but these cars have proven to be unworthy subjects in a modern world of competing cars that will actually start in below freezing temperatures. I won't even start to talk about the lousy Ford drivetrains they are based on.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
45,485 Posts
If anybody has any experience with Jaguar they would agree that your lucky if the engine starts. Jaguar compared to a Cadillac CTS? Umm, nothing to compare at this crossroad. I beat up some GM cars on certain aspects, but the CTS is clearly a world beater in it's class. Even the previous CTS was a good deal for performance and styling. I'm not sure of the reliability of this new Jag, but these cars have proven to be unworthy subjects in a modern world of competing cars that will actually start in below freezing temperatures. I won't even start to talk about the lousy Ford drivetrains they are based on.
Jaguars of old, maybe. The new Jaguar fleet has quality numbers at the top of the market segment -- right there with BMW.
And we all know the Jaguar engine is heavily modified but based on the Duretec. Whoopie. It's no secret.

We know CTS is good. But it's far from perfect. And it still need further refinement and maturing before it really starts taking on the cars in this class. And that's supposedly going to happen at teh MCE.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
11,900 Posts
We know CTS is good. But it's far from perfect. And it still need further refinement and maturing before it really starts taking on the cars in this class. And that's supposedly going to happen at teh MCE.
ditto, more waiting.. You just wait for the next <random GM car> it'll be great!
 

· Banned
Joined
·
1,170 Posts
Jaguars of old, maybe. The new Jaguar fleet has quality numbers at the top of the market segment -- right there with BMW.
And we all know the Jaguar engine is heavily modified but based on the Duretec. Whoopie. It's no secret.

We know CTS is good. But it's far from perfect. And it still need further refinement and maturing before it really starts taking on the cars in this class. And that's supposedly going to happen at teh MCE.
I guess you never spent ant any time with Jaguars, even the "new" ones. If they were even close to a BMW, they wouldn't be near extinction. BMW will not lease a 3 series for under $300 a month, so most people driving a Jaguar on a cheap lease are not even in the same category as the people surveying a car considered in the same class. It's hard for most people to believe a Jag a glorified Mercury or Lincoln. I don't expect you to believe me at all.
I don't put much faith in quality surveys, there are ways to manipulate the customers answers and the survey is made way too early in the life cycle of the product.
Customer satifaction for the Volkswagen Touareg is very high despite it is one the most problematic SUV's on the market. It just shows the owners love their vehicle so much, they overlook it's lousy reliability.
 

· Registered
2015 Cadillac XTS Platinum, 2014 Cadillac Saks 5th Ave ELR, 1989 Merkur XR4Ti, 1989 Merkur Scorpio
Joined
·
12,218 Posts
What it also does show is that for Cadillac to really begin competing in this segment, they need to look at adjacent competitors other than the 5-series. Look at what E-class brings to the table. Look at A6, GS ... and now the XF. They are world class luxury cars. Can Cadillac play with the big boys??
I do believe the CTS is opening up a can of whoopass on the "big boys" when it comes to sales, so the buying public is answering this question with a resounding "yes".

So methinks you got it backwards...
 

· Registered
Joined
·
8,988 Posts
Funny, Jamie Kitman tackles very similar points made in this thread in his monthly column found in the May 2008 edition of Automobile Magazine (pages 30-31, "From Northstar to Death Star: Cadillac Plans to Kill its V-8"). As usual, well written and thoughtful points, both about V-8-powered Caddies specifically and more generally what it will take to return Cadillac to its former glory.

The only point with which I don't agree, and I never get this point, is that Audi interiors are somehow worthy of duplication. I think they're pretty dated looking, actually, even though Audi pulls off great powertrains and pretty pleasing exteriors, like that found on the S5. To each his own, I guess.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
10,454 Posts
I guess I didn't realize the similarities between these two cars. To be honest, I saw an XF on the road yesterday and mistook it for a Japanese car, which wouldn't happen on the CTS.

It's very bland by Jaguar standards.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
13,069 Posts
Jaguars of old, maybe. The new Jaguar fleet has quality numbers at the top of the market segment -- right there with BMW.
And we all know the Jaguar engine is heavily modified but based on the Duretec. Whoopie. It's no secret.

We know CTS is good. But it's far from perfect. And it still need further refinement and maturing before it really starts taking on the cars in this class. And that's supposedly going to happen at teh MCE.
Jaguar V6 IS a Duratec, and to be fair, Ford bought that engine's design from Porsche.

The Jaguar V8 is pure Jaguar... all designed in England. No Ford input.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
45,485 Posts
I guess you never spent ant any time with Jaguars, even the "new" ones.
Well, if you consider me actually owning a Jaguar, "not spending any time with Jaguars," then ok.
Jaguars have grown from the "electrical gremlin" phase that plagued their cars for decades.
My friends who own "new" S-Types and XJR's have had no issues -- mechanical or electrical or otherwise.
I cannot say the same for Audis or Mercedes or Infinitis.

It's hard for most people to believe a Jag a glorified Mercury or Lincoln. I don't expect you to believe me at all.
I actually don't believe that. I do believe that Jaguar has an "old person's image" to it. I do not believe that Jaguars are considered no better than a Mercury or Lincoln.... even X-Type.

I don't put much faith in quality surveys, there are ways to manipulate the customers answers and the survey is made way too early in the life cycle of the product.
Even for Cadillac, which actually scores quite well?

Customer satifaction for the Volkswagen Touareg is very high despite it is one the most problematic SUV's on the market. It just shows the owners love their vehicle so much, they overlook it's lousy reliability.
Worse than a QX45/Armada? That's hard to believe.

Jaguar V6 IS a Duratec, and to be fair, Ford bought that engine's design from Porsche.

The Jaguar V8 is pure Jaguar... all designed in England. No Ford input.
Well... Not really. The AJ-V6 is a modified Duratec. It isn't a Duratec.
The Aston V12 is based on Duratec too.
The AJ-V8 is in the Land Rovers and Astons as well.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
1,170 Posts
Well, if you consider me actually owning a Jaguar, "not spending any time with Jaguars," then ok.
Do you own or lease it? If you own it, you lost a bundle driving it off the lot. You could have put your money on a Lexus or a BMW and do a better job of protecting your resale. If you lease it, read my previous opinion again.
 

· Registered
2015 Cadillac XTS Platinum, 2014 Cadillac Saks 5th Ave ELR, 1989 Merkur XR4Ti, 1989 Merkur Scorpio
Joined
·
12,218 Posts
Do you own or lease it? If you own it, you lost a bundle driving it off the lot. You could have put your money on a Lexus or a BMW and do a better job of protecting your resale. If you lease it, read my previous opinion again.
Or you could buy certified used. Used Jags are cheap and they have a good program.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,148 Posts
I wouldnt say that GM wont make another DOHC V8.

Caddy needs a V8. Not a turbo 6, not supercharged 4, it needs a V8. Being it Gen V powerd or otherwise, V8 is a must for a luxury brand.
I completely disagree. A V8 is not a requirement, would it be nice to have for a few years - sure - but Cadillac doesn't have a 7/S competitor, and thats where a V8 might be "required."

GM decided it wasn't worth the cost, and if they are putting the money towards advancing a E-Flex Sigma by a year, thats a good decision.

These old fashioned ideas of whats "needed" for any type of car are outdated. There are now many ways to make lots of power - and all have advantages and disadvantages. Its all going to be turned on its head within short order anyway. Just pretend electric motors are like DVDs and direct ICE power is like VHS.

Lets judge powertrains on power, torque, NVH and fuel economy - not some romanticized obsession with the past.
 
41 - 60 of 104 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top