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Re: A Proper Comparo: Jag XF vs Caddy CTS

Winding Road with a proper comparo! It's a good read also. Pretty fair write up between the two. They couldn't even pick one over the other. There are also some nice pictures of two very beautiful cars.
jasaero,

Thank you for the article it is one of the very best balanced comparison reviews I have read lately. I had chance to review XF and I was impressed.

JLM
 

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You couldn't win your arguement with facts, so you resort to attacking what he bought???

Classy.

I understand the point on the LS engines, and agree. If you are trying to be considered on the same playing field as the BMW's, Mercedes, Audis, and Jags........... you have to play their game. You have to be quieter, ride better, be faster, have a nicer interior, and be a better value. Remember that Cadillac is still considered to be somewhat of a joke.............. especially around the snooty set. Thus, you are asking these owners to trade down. Thus, you have to provide a compelling reason for them to do so.

It is easy to get your typical Chevy and Ford buyer to buy one. It is a totally different mindset.

Create a worldclass V8, or TTV6 for the car. Get rid of its bad habits. Then wait. The reputation that Cadillac is going for takes time to come. You aren't going to get it by putting a truck engine in the car.

Remember that this is in no way a slight on the LS engines. They are great engines.

As far as the Vette goes, totally different market again. Nobody has ever accused the Corvette of being a luxury car.
Extreme4x4,

Hang with me on this topic for a moment. Everyone talks as if luxury buyers are somehow methodical about their luxury car purchases, they are not.

I understand the luxury brand value perception and agree. I would not agree with the opinion that luxury buyers, are somehow thorough in their brand model comparables when selecting their luxury brand model of choice, on average they are not. I would submit to you, those of us who are auto enthusiast, auto reviewers or informed buyers have opinions regarding auto brands and their models based on our requirements or preferences or experiences.

However, when it comes to engines in luxury brand models, the vast majority of luxury buyers are not knowledgeable to understand or appreciate the differences, advantages, disadvantages of the various engine designs. That is not to say there are not luxury buyers whom understand the basic concept of 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 cylinder engines, but that is about as far as it goes. My experience has been, luxury buyers are no more knowledgeable than any other car buying segment. In fact, high end luxury buyers, say cars prices over $100,000.00, actually have a limited set of luxury brand models to choose from. And if you move down the price range, the number of luxury models improves and the numbers of luxury buyers increase as well, but their knowledge does not.

The question a luxury buyer asks themselves is; does this luxury brand model meet my requirements? And it will be a very small number of luxury buyers that will distinguish engine design preference, let alone knowledge of the comparable performance specifications, other than horse power. I believe these opinions in regards to engine design simply hold no value for luxury buyers.

JLM
 

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Weekend Salutations Mr. James MC:

Let me clear up some issues, the previously mentioned reliability issues with Jaguar were for the most part dealt with years, and years ago when FORD, bought the Company! Those problems were never mechanical, the engines didn't seize, the transmissions didn't quit, they were almost always electronic in nature.

As a previous Jaguar owner (XJ-S V12), I personally never had the problems I heard about (from some of my fellow Jaguar owners), but I did know who to blame: Lucas Electronics. This was a major supplier to all British Manufactured Autos even Rolls Royce. The metal used in the wiring had unusually high levels of sulfur, which at times caused the fibers to break causing short circuits and system failures. If LUCAS had been in America, product liability suits would have bankrupted the company years ago. To it's credit FORD, never used them, so the problems subsided almost totally. In the last 8 years or so JD Power and Associates have rated Jaguar in the upper percentiles of reliability. So the issues with "Granny's car" is very much in the past, and at rest.

By the way....I had plenty of electrical issues with my 1984 Cadillac Seville that cost me plenty of dollars, until I found an Egyptian Engineer that fixed them finally. My newer Cadillacs are almost trouble free!

Faith can be a wonderful thing, when entered into by knowledge of the Truth (It can set you Free) and not just rehashed Rhetoric.:yup:

:drive:
Greetings PAULSTS1,
I would agree with your comments regarding Jaguars, past reliability issues and where they are today. And I would add when I evaluated Jaguar’s S Type along with Audi’s A6, BMW’s 545i, Cadillac’s STS V8, Lexus GS430, Mercedes-Benz's E Class; Jaguar’s S Type and Mercedes Benz’s E Class were eliminated due to style and design. The quality ratings of Jaguar, and BMW were trending up, however Mercedes-Benz was not progressing as well. All this known in regard to quality, would not have prevented me from purchasing a Mercedes Benz’s E Class if their style and design had met my requirements. In fact, I could apply that impression across the board to Audi, Jaguar, Infiniti and BMW at that time.

Now, more to my current evaluations and for my requirements in style and design, Cadillac remains at the top along with Jaguar, Aston Martin and to my surprise Audi. Audi’s S5 Coupe/ R8, Aston Martin’s Vantage, Cadillac’s CTS/ STS/ XLR and Jaguar’s XF/XK all moved into purchase consideration. At this point BMW, Lexus and Mercedes-Benz are no longer on my buy list of luxury brands, due to style and design. I used the NYIAS to finalize my evaluation. I am most impressed with Cadillac and Jaguar overall with Cadillac’s V Series (CTS, STS ,XLR) and Jaguar’s XF Supercharged/XKR. Cadillac is my first preference for purchase with Jaguar in the #2 position. But this says so much for Jaguar in my mind. Jaguar’s new style and design language is just as compelling to me as Cadillac’s to my eyes and I believe this will have a similar impact on Jaguar as the Art and Science design theme has had with Cadillac.

Due to my requirements for a premium luxury performance mid size sedan and premium luxury performance roadster, Cadillac and Jaguar offer the most compelling luxury models in this class.

JLM
 

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Hi JLM:

It's so interesting that I just sent you a personal message...I looked up this thread and saw your response to last eves post.

I loved the styling of the Jaguar S type, it's almost feminine features are some of the most beautiful since the 1984 Cadillac Seville I bought to honor my late mother, who loved the car!

My major requirements are: Style, comfort, and engine refinement. Jaguar had all these and more. Remember; I was a British subject at birth, and my heart is never far from the Crown!:yup:

Well, so much for now, again.

:drive:
Hi Paul,

I look forward to your assessment of the Jaguar XF. I was very impressed with my review.

JLM
 

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I would find it extremely ironic if we both ended up with XF's. :zippy:
As I'm still 2 years out... I'm going to keep my eye on the CTS MCE... I still need to make my way to the Jaguar dealership though to check out the XF extensively.
Hi mgescuro,

I would recommend a visit to your Jaguar dealership. Do not get me wrong here, I concluded based on my NYIAS visit and Jaguar dealership review of the XK and XF, Cadillac remains as my first preference in the STS and XLR. That said, Jaguar clearly has replaced, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus as luxury brands based on my requirements.

My buddy on the other hand has Jaguar as his luxury preference in the XKR Coupe luxury performance sports car of choice. He is only trying to decide on color and features and time of purchase.

JLM
 

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I was planning on going yesterday, but I got caught up in other things. So I was planning on going today. But I have friends dropping by this afternoon, so I can't go. Perhaps next week, I'll get a chance to drop by British Motors.

My biggest concern with the XF was its exterior styling. It wasn't coming through in pics -- much the same the CTS was. When I went to the SFIAS last November, I stood in front of a grey-purple XF (Pearl Grey). And that sold me. It was sleek. It was luxurious. It was modern. It was everything a modern interpretation of a Jaguar should and could be. :yup:

I just need to drive it at this point.
mgescuro,

I do believe you have expressed my impression exactly of Jaguar's new design language. Both the XF and XK have lines, style, design, performance, features and ride quality that create a unique Jaguar experience. That is what impressed me the most about the new Jags. They are every bit new in their design, not retro, fresh and I would say exotic as only Jaguar car style and design can. Elegant luxury sport is how I would characterize Jaguar’s new design language in the XF and XK.

In my experience to date, Jaguar has found their design "Mojo". Just as strongly as Cadillac has found theirs in the Art and Science and the Evoq concept. I will be interested in your review once you have a chance.

From my view, I applaud Jaguar’s new designs with as much enthusiasm as I do with Cadillac. For my taste, I now have two truly superb design themes that create a sense of style that is excellent but yet different.

JLM
 

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I was planning on going yesterday, but I got caught up in other things. So I was planning on going today. But I have friends dropping by this afternoon, so I can't go. Perhaps next week, I'll get a chance to drop by British Motors.

My biggest concern with the XF was its exterior styling. It wasn't coming through in pics -- much the same the CTS was. When I went to the SFIAS last November, I stood in front of a grey-purple XF (Pearl Grey). And that sold me. It was sleek. It was luxurious. It was modern. It was everything a modern interpretation of a Jaguar should and could be. :yup:

I just need to drive it at this point.
mgescuro,

I responded in a previous note in regard to my impression and review of Jaguar’s new design language in the XF and XK and I remain very impressed. However, I wanted to add an impression from a style and design perspective where I wanted more of the XF Concept design deployed into the XF production model. Where I was somewhat disappointed, is with the styling of the front end. Though I like the final production in general, it is not as sharp or as crisp as the XF concept, which impressed me so much. It was softened for the production XF model, which for me reduced the styling impact and dramatic expressive design language that creates the new edge for this Jaguar sedan.

This has not negatively impacted my impression or rankling of Jaguar as my second luxury brand for design following Cadillac. But I wondered if the design of the XF Concept had translated more to the production model in this regard, it would have made it a more difficult decision for me to remain with Cadillac’s STS and XLR. Yet I am very impressed with what Jaguar has created in the new XF and XK.

Again once you have a chance to review the XF, I would be interested in your assessment.

JLM
 

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Actually, we're in agreement here. That's why I wanted to at least see one in person. XF and CTS's respective design elements did not come through in their respective photo spreads. CTS looked quite rear heavy. And XF looked a bit dull.

However in person, the cars came off quite well. And I was happy about that.

I also agree with the impression of the XF's front end. However, I'm not really bothered by it. Jaguars have always exuded refined style and grace, which this XF does quite well. It doesn't necessarily need that high impact slap-in-the-face design that Cadillac is relying on and has traditionally relied on. That's why I believe the XF still works well, even without the high impact design. It's true to its heritage.

Word on the street is the XJ will be a "high impact" car with a wow factor higher than the XF-C.
mgescuro,

Yes, the design theme of Jaguar is much more subtle and is not as aggressive as Cadillac‘s Art and Science design theme. But in my view that is Jaguar’s attractiveness in their design when contrasted with Cadillac’s design.

JLM
 

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Two losers fight and neither one wins.

What exactly is there to brag about here?
TriShield,

From my perspective, it is style and design that elevates these two luxury brands above all others today. And I would suggest Cadillac and Jaguar have taken their design language beyond the comparative luxury brands, such as Mercedes-Benz, BMW or Lexus. It is a matter of personal taste of the luxury buyer and what they value and what value they place on style and design. For my taste today Cadillac and Jaguar are my two favorite luxury car designers above all others with Cadillac offering the most compelling designs to date.

JLM
 

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I fail to see how the CTS is a loser. It's one of the classes' top sellers and has fared well in other comparos.
On the other hand, Jaguars have not set the world on fire.
eaton53,

Cadillac's CTS first generation and second generation are extremely positive for Cadillac in terms of design and sales. But more important in my view is the improvements made with the second generation CTS. This new CTS model could have been very safe in its design, which generally happens when a car brand has success with a style or design. In this case with Cadillac's CTS, Cadillac and its designers pushed the envelope once again and the new CTS is stunning. And shortly the CTS-V and later the CTS Coupe. I am so impressed with Cadillac's future plans for this model. I believe Jaguar's XF and XK will perform the same impact for Jaguar as the XLR and CTS has performed for Cadillac.

JLM
 

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JLM,
I saw the CTS-V in Chicago and it was amazing.

I know the purists hate to hear this, but IMO the biggest difference between the Gen 1 and Gen 2 V is the addition of an automatic transmission. The audience for the car will be much wider.
eaton53,

Yes again I agree with you and an additional feature is MRC (Magnetic Ride Control) of which almost all high end performance luxury performance cars are implementing in some form or another in addition to Cadillac. The new CTS-V incorporates the second generation MCR system. Both the auto transmission and MRC enhance the appeal to performance luxury buyers such as myself. The option at having both a manual and automatic transmission is fantastic with MRC.

I have not test driven the new CTS-V and would suspect that it will be nearly impossible in the first year of production. All I can say is I was very impressed with the specifications and style and design of Cadillac's CTS-V.

JLM
 

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First of all it is requested that you completely overlook my previous post on this topic of comparison between the Cadillac CTS and the Jaguar XF. This appeal has been made because I have only recently been able to make an up close and personal evaluation of both cars, au natural. The experience was eye-opening, enlightening, and perception enhancing.

First: Cadillac CTS: The modern interpretation of Cadillac’s Sports Luxury car from the perspective of an STS owner is that the cabin is a bit snug. The upright seating position is not the most comfortable I have experienced during my multi vehicle evaluation (kudos in that regard would go to the Volvo S80). I don’t see the CTS winning a lot of praise from traditional Cadillac owners based upon the interior packaging.

Performance of the DI 3.6 V6 is satisfactory, neither as refined or powerful feeling (torque) as from the Northstar V8, but I concede it may be acceptable to owners of Asian or European midsized sedans, or persons of more diminutive stature. There exists perceptible NVH, in the drive train operation, that I am convinced will be eventually ignored by an owner over time.

What impressed me was the styling, and interior materials used, this was the first Cadillac in a long time to excel at the effort to make the interior luxurious. The feel of the switchgear could be improved, but to be fair for a car priced similarly to the Nissan Maxima, it rocks, freshly out. I give it 3 out of 5 possible stars.

The Jaguar XF is the more recent effort in this comparo, it represents a bold departure from the traditional styling mold of Jaguar. The cabin is luxurious and comfortable, and exuded that old fashioned British charm and aroma, in a contempory body. The switchgear was done with high quality materials, and appeared durable. I would not have felt cheated in this cabin as a daily driver.

Performance of the 4.2 normally aspirated V8 was adequate though at 300 Hp, could have used more power (the XF felt quite heavy). I did later discover that Jaguar has plans to replace the 4.2 with a 5.0 special duty engine as a running change shortly. The engine as tested was velvety smooth, and was supremely hushed; any luxury buyer would not find it objectionable.

While I liked the styling, I don’t know if it’s just because it is new and fresh or how the styling will weather over time? Perhaps here is where the previous S Type may provide some advantage, it still looks dignified.

Comparisons: First off is the Price, at about 38000, the CTS is impossible to beat, and definitely is the better buy over the $57,000 XF. The XF does offer more luxury and amenities, but for almost a $20000 premium. That stratospheric statistic removes the XF from favorably comparing with the CTS. I felt the XF is better comparable to the STS, Audi A6, BMW 5 Series, and Volvo S80. I rated the XF also 3 stars. One point was deducted for the lofty cost this is what kept the XF from winning a decisive victory over the CTS.

What do you think of this Camparo?

:drive:
Greetings PAULSTS1,

I like your review and agree with many of your points. From a comparison perspective, I only compared Cadillac's CTS from a style perspective. The Jaguar XF is featured and rides more in segment with the Cadillac STS /STS-V.

There is so much I appreciate about Cadillac's new CTS from a style and design perspective, that at times it overshadows some of the features I have come to appreciate in Cadillac’s STS.

What impresses me most about Jaguar's XF style and design, it is not retro in the least. I was not a huge fan of the S Type style and design when compared to the new XF. This new design language for Jaguar has been needed for years. In my view, it will transform Jaguar into the modern seductive luxury brand that exemplifies Jaguar's feel and textures of materials.

For my taste, Cadillac and Jaguar have taken the lead in style and design in the segment of performance luxury premium mid size sedan and luxury performance sports car. Cadillac's CTS/CTS-V, STS/STS-V, XLR/XLR-V and Jaguar's XF/XF Supercharge, XK/XKR appeal to me the most today. Other luxury brands have some very engaging designs, such as Audi and BMW, but they simply are not as compelling as Cadillac and Jaguar to my eyes.

Cadillac remains my first preference for luxury car purchase, but clearly I now have an alternate in Jaguar.

JLM
 

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Weekend Salutations JLM:
In defense of the Traditional styling of the Jaguar S Type I still like it. It reminds me of one of my favorite college professors, she had a 1962 Jaguar Mark II that she meticulously maintained and when on summer holidays, she would often drive it from Alaska to Terra Del Fuego (for those geographically challenged from the upper most point of North America, to the end of South America (on the Brazilian coast). She loved that car. The interior of the car was maroon leather and white exterior, it had wire spoked wheels. Even though at that time (1970) the car was already almost a decade old it was dignified.
While I am sure by now that you realize I am a Cadillac enthusiast, I am also becoming a nuevo automotive connoisseur, at least in my mind. :)
Last evening I was privy to a sneak peak of the 2009 Mercedes Benz CLS, and let me assure all, MB isn’t sitting down! For Cadillac to stay in the fight, they will have to really put on the boxing gloves, and be ready for battle.:yup:

:drive:
Hi PAULSTS1,

Yes, Mercedes-Benz's CLS is one of the bright spots from a style and design in my view. However, the refreshed 2009 CLS is very mild in its updates from a style and design perspective when compared to its current model. I do not think is bad thing at all considering how much I enjoy the current design. The CLS 55 AMG was my # 2 high performance sedan with BMW M5 as my third positioned with Cadillac's STS-V remaining my #1 preference. However now I have dropped both BMW's M5 and Mercedes-Benz's CLS 63 AMG from my purchase list and both were replaced by Jaguar’s XF Supercharged and it is all due to new style and design of Jaguar, it is that powerful in my opinion.

In my case, there is an added advantage to my enjoyment of Cadillac and Jaguar's stellar design language, they both offer luxury brand models that meet my requirements Cadillac's STS/STS-V,XLR/XLR-V and Jaguar's XF/XF Supercharged, XK/XKR. That is my current problem with Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti and Acura. I find some models within their lineup that are somewhat appealing, but the overall style and design theme fall far short of Cadillac and Jaguar in my view.

Jaguar's retro design language has an appeal for the classic Jaguar look and feel and that is a beautiful design, I just prefer the new design language so much more. There are other design themes that meet the level of appeal to me as Cadillac and Jaguar and they are, Aston Martin and Lamborghini. Cadillac, Jaguar, Aston Martin and Lamborghini in that order are my gold standard for style and design. All other luxury or exotic brands simply have a model here and there that are attractive to me. Cadillac is first in terms of style and design today and offers the most complete line of products of all of the brands that meet my requirements today.

JLM
 
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