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Re: A Proper Comparo: Jag XF vs Caddy CTS

Thank goodness!! They even said it in the article that the 335i comparisons are incorrect.
But they also said that "Americans" (media and consumers, I'm assuming), should "situate Cadillac in its rightful premium spot on the snob podium." And that is correct. Also, it is something Cadillac needs to take note of, as they still haven't gotten it through their thick, stubborn skulls yet.

Funny that they too mention the lack of push button start.
They also mention the lack of refinement from the engine.

Overall, it's very fair, I thoguht.

 

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Re: A Proper Comparo: Jag XF vs Caddy CTS

The 3.6L DI is really a "midlevel" engine parading around as a top end engine.
In fact, isn't the 2.8L still standard for markets outside the US?

THe problem is that the CTS tops out where the midlevel begins on every single one of its competitors begins. Then there's this huge gap from top end CTS to performance.

 

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Re: A Proper Comparo: Jag XF vs Caddy CTS

RUmors are the top-end CTS engine will be a 3.0L Twin Turbo V6 @ 420HP.
Sounds pretty interesting, but it's no V8.

 

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Re: A Proper Comparo: Jag XF vs Caddy CTS

You always strike me as someone very particular as to what goes into a luxury car. So my question for you is, would you prefer a smallblock V8 to a twin turbo V6? I know I would, and I bet it's a much cheaper option to boot. But I honestly don't know how it would be perceived.

I would prefer a TwinTurbo V6 over any smallblock in a Cadillac.
I would also prefer the TwinTurbo to be the midlevel, with a higher output version for the high end, with an option for a DOHC V8.

Cheaper is simply not an option for a luxury car.
Luxury is luxury. It has nothing to do with "cheap."

 

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Still, you never hear anyone complain about their refinement, etc. If it's good enough for the best it's good enough for Cadillac.

Bentley actually reverted back to the OHV RR engine after using the BMW DOHC V8 for a few years. They could use the W12 as they do in the Continental but the 'ol V8 is a better engine. Meanwhile, RR uses the BMW V12.

Bentley will move onto the Audi W12 and Bugatti W16 engines.
OHV Bentleys are all but gone.

They do. Its called Maybach and Rolls Royce.

Yes and no. Maybach and Rolls compete with Azure and the traditional Bentley. Flying Spur and ConGT compete with the highest of the S-class and CL-class. And even then, they're still higher end.

 

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and why do we still not get those sweet Taillamps in America

The clear taillamps are available on CTS and STS as an option. When you buy one, just tell the dealer you want the clear lenses.

If the two cars are really that close, then the Caddy is the clear, hands-down winner. A loaded CTS costs less than a base XF.

It amazes me that so many here and elsewhere have taken to not just ignoring that fact, but attacking anyone who event suggests that price is a factor in car-buying decisions.

Of course price is a factor when buying a car. But in the luxury market, price isn't as big a deciding factor as prestige, brand name, and image. In this market, you will find people willing to pay what I like to call the "Mercedes Tax" or "BMW Tax." People will pay $5-15,000 more for a comparably equipped competing car because it's got the Tri-Star or Propeller on the hood. Or in this case.... a Leaper.

A base XF is equivalent to a mid-range 5-series. Jaguar is actually a notch higher than the typical German sedans. What Jaguar is trying to reassert is their heritage for sportiness, unrivaled luxury, and style. They are more exclusive than the Germans.

What it also does show is that for Cadillac to really begin competing in this segment, they need to look at adjacent competitors other than the 5-series. Look at what E-class brings to the table. Look at A6, GS ... and now the XF. They are world class luxury cars. Can Cadillac play with the big boys??

In performance? Sure. No problem. That hasn't been an issue for Cadillac since the renaissance began 8 years ago. It's the little things that still plague Cadillac. And they are mentioned in the review: push button start, unrefined engine, noise levels, strange option packages, etc. All of it needs to be polished, so Cadillac can make even greater impacts on the market and the consumer.

So yes, at this stage, it is so much more than price.

 

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If anybody has any experience with Jaguar they would agree that your lucky if the engine starts. Jaguar compared to a Cadillac CTS? Umm, nothing to compare at this crossroad. I beat up some GM cars on certain aspects, but the CTS is clearly a world beater in it's class. Even the previous CTS was a good deal for performance and styling. I'm not sure of the reliability of this new Jag, but these cars have proven to be unworthy subjects in a modern world of competing cars that will actually start in below freezing temperatures. I won't even start to talk about the lousy Ford drivetrains they are based on.

Jaguars of old, maybe. The new Jaguar fleet has quality numbers at the top of the market segment -- right there with BMW.
And we all know the Jaguar engine is heavily modified but based on the Duretec. Whoopie. It's no secret.

We know CTS is good. But it's far from perfect. And it still need further refinement and maturing before it really starts taking on the cars in this class. And that's supposedly going to happen at teh MCE.

 

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I guess you never spent ant any time with Jaguars, even the "new" ones.

Well, if you consider me actually owning a Jaguar, "not spending any time with Jaguars," then ok.
Jaguars have grown from the "electrical gremlin" phase that plagued their cars for decades.
My friends who own "new" S-Types and XJR's have had no issues -- mechanical or electrical or otherwise.
I cannot say the same for Audis or Mercedes or Infinitis.

It's hard for most people to believe a Jag a glorified Mercury or Lincoln. I don't expect you to believe me at all.

I actually don't believe that. I do believe that Jaguar has an "old person's image" to it. I do not believe that Jaguars are considered no better than a Mercury or Lincoln.... even X-Type.

I don't put much faith in quality surveys, there are ways to manipulate the customers answers and the survey is made way too early in the life cycle of the product.

Even for Cadillac, which actually scores quite well?

Customer satifaction for the Volkswagen Touareg is very high despite it is one the most problematic SUV's on the market. It just shows the owners love their vehicle so much, they overlook it's lousy reliability.

Worse than a QX45/Armada? That's hard to believe.

Jaguar V6 IS a Duratec, and to be fair, Ford bought that engine's design from Porsche.

The Jaguar V8 is pure Jaguar... all designed in England. No Ford input.

Well... Not really. The AJ-V6 is a modified Duratec. It isn't a Duratec.
The Aston V12 is based on Duratec too.
The AJ-V8 is in the Land Rovers and Astons as well.

 

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Do you own or lease it? If you own it, you lost a bundle driving it off the lot. You could have put your money on a Lexus or a BMW and do a better job of protecting your resale. If you lease it, read my previous opinion again.

I own it. It was bought new, but I acquired it from my dad. So it's Used... in a way.
I don't lease. Leasing is an incredible wasteful use of money. I keep my cars a long time.

 

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No, they don't.

Put an LS/2-mode in there and kick Euro ass with power, fuel economy and the all-important green image... and with what European motors cost, do it for less.

I totally disagree with you.
You need to play the same game your competitors are playing; otherwise, it will continually be the same story of Cadillac coming to a gunfight with a knife.

LS2 might out power and maybe out green the Euro motors, but it lack the refinement and technological advancements of even a mid-level Euro engine, not to even mention the top end Euro engines.

GM, by not playing that game, is only proving to the world that it CAN'T play that game.

And people wonder why GM cars like Malibu and CTS and most other GM cars can't gain in conquest sales? Because, not matter how improved these cars might be... they're still a technological pig compared to their Japanese and European counterparts.

 

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I am most impressed with Cadillac and Jaguar overall with Cadillac’s V Series (CTS, STS ,XLR) and Jaguar’s XF Supercharged/XKR. Cadillac is my first preference for purchase with Jaguar in the #2 position.

I would find it extremely ironic if we both ended up with XF's. :zippy:
As I'm still 2 years out... I'm going to keep my eye on the CTS MCE... I still need to make my way to the Jaguar dealership though to check out the XF extensively.

 

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I would recommend a visit to your Jaguar dealership. Do not get me wrong here, I concluded based on my NYIAS visit and Jaguar dealership review of the XK and XF, Cadillac remains as my first preference in the STS and XLR. That said, Jaguar clearly has replaced, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus as luxury brands based on my requirements.

My buddy on the other hand has Jaguar as his luxury preference in the XKR Coupe luxury performance sports car of choice. He is only trying to decide on color and features and time of purchase.

I was planning on going yesterday, but I got caught up in other things. So I was planning on going today. But I have friends dropping by this afternoon, so I can't go. Perhaps next week, I'll get a chance to drop by British Motors.

My biggest concern with the XF was its exterior styling. It wasn't coming through in pics -- much the same the CTS was. When I went to the SFIAS last November, I stood in front of a grey-purple XF (Pearl Grey). And that sold me. It was sleek. It was luxurious. It was modern. It was everything a modern interpretation of a Jaguar should and could be. :yup:

I just need to drive it at this point.

 

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Where I was somewhat disappointed, is with the styling of the front end. Though I like the final production in general, it is not as sharp or as crisp as the XF concept, which impressed me so much. It was softened for the production XF model, which for me reduced the styling impact and dramatic expressive design language that creates the new edge for this Jaguar sedan.

This has not negatively impacted my impression or rankling of Jaguar as my second luxury brand for design following Cadillac. But I wondered if the design of the XF Concept had translated more to the production model in this regard, it would have made it a more difficult decision for me to remain with Cadillac’s STS and XLR. Yet I am very impressed with what Jaguar has created in the new XF and XK.

Actually, we're in agreement here. That's why I wanted to at least see one in person. XF and CTS's respective design elements did not come through in their respective photo spreads. CTS looked quite rear heavy. And XF looked a bit dull.

However in person, the cars came off quite well. And I was happy about that.

I also agree with the impression of the XF's front end. However, I'm not really bothered by it. Jaguars have always exuded refined style and grace, which this XF does quite well. It doesn't necessarily need that high impact slap-in-the-face design that Cadillac is relying on and has traditionally relied on. That's why I believe the XF still works well, even without the high impact design. It's true to its heritage.

Word on the street is the XJ will be a "high impact" car with a wow factor higher than the XF-C.

 

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Re: A Proper Comparo: Jag XF vs Caddy CTS

Looks like the engine lineup of the CTS matches well with the smaller imported premium sedans like the 3-series, C-class and IS.
Top engine for the regular model is a V6, with the V8 reserved for the sporty high performance model.

Yes.... and then the performance series is geared towards the E55 and M5.
There is a discontinuity in what the CTS is supposed to be representing.

CTS is also far too large to compete with 3, C, and IS. And it's identical in size to the 5-series.

 

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The Jaguar XF is the more recent effort in this comparo, it represents a bold departure from the traditional styling mold of Jaguar. The cabin is luxurious and comfortable, and exuded that old fashioned British charm and aroma, in a contempory body. The switchgear was done with high quality materials, and appeared durable. I would not have felt cheated in this cabin as a daily driver.

Performance of the 4.2 normally aspirated V8 was adequate though at 300 Hp, could have used more power (the XF felt quite heavy). I did later discover that Jaguar has plans to replace the 4.2 with a 5.0 special duty engine as a running change shortly. The engine as tested was velvety smooth, and was supremely hushed; any luxury buyer would not find it objectionable.

While I liked the styling, I don’t know if it’s just because it is new and fresh or how the styling will weather over time? Perhaps here is where the previous S Type may provide some advantage, it still looks dignified.

Comparisons: First off is the Price, at about 38000, the CTS is impossible to beat, and definitely is the better buy over the $57,000 XF. The XF does offer more luxury and amenities, but for almost a $20000 premium. That stratospheric statistic removes the XF from favorably comparing with the CTS. I felt the XF is better comparable to the STS, Audi A6, BMW 5 Series, and Volvo S80. I rated the XF also 3 stars. One point was deducted for the lofty cost this is what kept the XF from winning a decisive victory over the CTS.

Oh Paul Paul Paul....
I spent the afternoon at the Jaguar Dealership in San Francisco. And after a good 40 minute test drive among the twists and turns and a really blind Buick Park Avenue driver darting out of her garage (XF has a loud horn).... I can say the XF is more than a match for CTS. And I must re-iterate... CTS just isn't in this class of vehicle!!!

Yes, the V8 is supremely hushed, and there's just enough growl to let you know the cat can run when needed. I started in Sport Mode when it was my turn to drive. I simply wasn't ready for the amount of power that was at my command. The numbers might say 300HP... but it feels like 380HP. That's the truth.
The brakes will haul the car down 60-0 in short order. You can feel it when you touch it.

Oh.. and another thing... the Bowers-Wilkins audio system. I've never experienced an audio system with an audio stage quite like this in a car!!! I hold a great deal of respect for the Lexus Mark-Levinson system. I feel the STS Bose system is a tad better than the M-L system. And the B&O system in the Audi is quite impressive as well. But these systems don't hold a candle to the B-W system in the XF!!!!!!!!!

Is the XF worth $20,000 over a fully loaded CTS?? ABSO-FRIGGIN-LUTELY!!!!
Then again, the CTS isn't squarely competitive in this market segment as of this date!! And it is sorely lacking some basics that are a necessity in this segment. Cadillac has a lot of work to do.
There is no doubt in my mind that CTS needs the full luxury of the STS without STS's missteps in order to be competitive here.

Plus the service and attention I got at British Motors of SF was heads and shoulders and simply light years better than anything I've gotten from these Chevy-Cadillac combo dealerships.

I will post a more detailed review later.
As much as it pains me to leave GM, after a long history with them, I have found my next car purchase. And it isn't the Cadillac I've always dreamed of owning.

Jaguar has got a BIG winner here.

 

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The CTS is another issue given that it has been well received Cadillac needs to turn it's attention to releasing the other variants promised. Using the LS6 engine seems to work for the V model. I am concerned that the CTS is not fully equipped to fall into the mainstream Cadillac vacuum. The DTS and STS must be replaced and soon. Cadillac cannot afford to stagnate the brand as the personal sized CTS won't woo enough of the big dollar traditional buyers to really make the division highly profitable. I get concerned when a Company doesn't follow its marketing plan, and goes off on a tangent.

The biggest concern is the fact that Cadillac's line up is in transition again.

I hope Cadillac realizes that they are competing in what is probably the most cutthroat segment of the industry. Customers are far more demanding from their vehicles and customer experience. And thus far, Cadillac has been consistently hit and miss. This is a very dynamic segment, and stagnation spells death.

And if the CLS is as striking as you say it is.... Cadillac will have work to do. And Cadillac's continual "preview" of their future designs, while being slow to market, doesn't do them any favors. I would much prefer to see spyshots of some "unknown vehicle," and the Cadillac to hit the auto show circuit... and then release that fall.

Cadillac really hasn't been on par with Jaguar for prestige. Cadillac is working on restoring its image, but their strategy is meeting with mixed results, and I find myself not agreeing with their product strategy.
Ford loused up Jaguar's product strategy, but before they were sold, Ford managed to fix the fundamental problems that had plagued Jaguar. I firmly believe Jaguar is poised to storm the luxury world. With a new XJ, along with the XF, it can reassert itself as the "5th option" -- over Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and Lexus.