[eaton53]

Re: A Proper Comparo: Jag XF vs Caddy CTS

No - its better than a V8.

Before the days of DI and $4.00 gas I'd agree with you, but:

1) Today's best V6s are as smooth as last decade's V8s - which were plenty smooth.
2) Turbos offer the same power as more displacement with better economy.
3) DI eliminates turbo lag.
4) GM isn't going to do DOHC V8s - so its a turbo DI 6 or an LS3 - which do you think is going to look more "advanced"

So, I'll take the slight NVH hit relative to a clean sheet V8 design to get better fuel economy for equal power. And I bet most Americans will too. 40K (the starting point for this type of CTS) is still within the market for people who care about a 20% fuel economy difference.

Now, when you get to the S class level - then I'd take the V8. Gas mileage becomes less of an issue when you are dropping 80K on a car.

Where are you getting this 20% fuel economy difference? I've yet to see the LS get beat in a fuel econ matchup.

And turbos do not have an NVH advantage. You can hear them doing their little whirry thing, where all you need is some exhaust tuning on a small block. See some of the G8 reviews for an example... several reviewers have been surprised by the the unexpected lack of rumble.

I'd rather have a V8 any day.... especially once they DI it, which is surely coming.

 

[eaton53]

Re: A Proper Comparo: Jag XF vs Caddy CTS

Yes but what car will be your next purchase?

I'm seriously considering Cadillacs and the Ute. The STS will have a Northstar but if it had an LS engine that would be great.

If the V8 didn't do anything for the Impala, Lacrosse, and Grand Prix, why on earth would it help the CTS?

Well, obviously those cars are driven by the wrong wheels!!

I never said they did. However, drive BMW's turbo 6, its plenty smooth - more than the current LS engines.

Your second point just shows how bad the perception of that engine is - and GM has enough of a perception fight on its hands.

I've driven many BMW's.... They're the most overrated car out there and their "smoothness" compared to others is mostly hype - and that's coming from a former BMW owner. And they're down a lot of HP compared to an LS3.

I used to love them before the stupid gizmos and ugly stick beating.

I don't know where your getting this "bad perception" of this engine from.
Even the haters at TTAC like it and they don't like anything from GM.

The second point did nothing but show what is possible by tuning.
They can basically make it do whatever they want depending on the application.

 

[eaton53]

What it also does show is that for Cadillac to really begin competing in this segment, they need to look at adjacent competitors other than the 5-series. Look at what E-class brings to the table. Look at A6, GS ... and now the XF. They are world class luxury cars. Can Cadillac play with the big boys??

I do believe the CTS is opening up a can of whoopass on the "big boys" when it comes to sales, so the buying public is answering this question with a resounding "yes".

So methinks you got it backwards...

 

[eaton53]

Do you own or lease it? If you own it, you lost a bundle driving it off the lot. You could have put your money on a Lexus or a BMW and do a better job of protecting your resale. If you lease it, read my previous opinion again.

Or you could buy certified used. Used Jags are cheap and they have a good program.

 

[eaton53]

I completely disagree. A V8 is not a requirement, would it be nice to have for a few years - sure - but Cadillac doesn't have a 7/S competitor, and thats where a V8 might be "required."

GM decided it wasn't worth the cost, and if they are putting the money towards advancing a E-Flex Sigma by a year, thats a good decision.

These old fashioned ideas of whats "needed" for any type of car are outdated. There are now many ways to make lots of power - and all have advantages and disadvantages. Its all going to be turned on its head within short order anyway. Just pretend electric motors are like DVDs and direct ICE power is like VHS.

Lets judge powertrains on power, torque, NVH and fuel economy - not some romanticized obsession with the past.

IMO, rather than E-Flex Sigmas you'll be seeing LS w/AFM powered 2-mode Li-Ion Plug-In Sigma and Zeta Cadillacs.

They've got the jump on everyone when it comes to powerful hybrids (the Lexus LS600h is a joke) and when those powertrains find their way into luxury cars they'll be the Standard of the World for power and fuel economy.

They can probably do this for less than the Germans charge for just an engine.

Speaking of the Germans, despite their investment in it I've read that they think the 2-mode isn't good enough (Translation: Not German) so they're tweaking (Translation: Overcomplicating) it. So who knows when we'll see it in any of their stuff or if it'll work great like I-Drive or COMAND (Translation: NOT!).

 

[eaton53]

If you are trying to be considered on the same playing field as the BMW's, Mercedes, Audis, and Jags........... you have to play their game.

No, they don't.

Put an LS/2-mode in there and kick Euro ass with power, fuel economy and the all-important green image... and with what European motors cost, do it for less.

 

[eaton53]

I totally disagree with you.
You need to play the same game your competitors are playing; otherwise, it will continually be the same story of Cadillac coming to a gunfight with a knife.

LS2 might out power and maybe out green the Euro motors, but it lack the refinement and technological advancements of even a mid-level Euro engine, not to even mention the top end Euro engines.

GM, by not playing that game, is only proving to the world that it CAN'T play that game.

And people wonder why GM cars like Malibu and CTS and most other GM cars can't gain in conquest sales? Because, not matter how improved these cars might be... they're still a technological pig compared to their Japanese and European counterparts.

What exactly is this "technological advancement" of a Euro engine when they're doing the same thing everybody else is doing? That's not "technological advancement"... that's "nothing special".

By putting in a 2-mode hybrid, they'd be saying we're changing the game and how it's played, this technology is the future and you're a bunch of outdated gas hogs. Provide all of the capability with none of the guilt.

 

[eaton53]

Remember.......... perception is everything. The LS engines have the "perception" of being crude neanderthals, that suck gas, run rough, but make plenty of power.

Those perceptions will go right out the window when a customer looks at the window sticker and sees 50% better EPA fuel economy (LS engines don't have any problem beating Euro motors on mileage without the 2-mode), hears complete silence at stop and proceeds smoothly and quietly on electric power.

 

[eaton53]

Two losers fight and neither one wins.

What exactly is there to brag about here?

I fail to see how the CTS is a loser. It's one of the classes' top sellers and has fared well in other comparos.
On the other hand, Jaguars have not set the world on fire.

 

[eaton53]

JLM,
I saw the CTS-V in Chicago and it was amazing.

I know the purists hate to hear this, but IMO the biggest difference between the Gen 1 and Gen 2 V is the addition of an automatic transmission. The audience for the car will be much wider.