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Top Gear's test of the Omega vs the XT Falcon the other night was interesting. In acceleration, the Falcon was a few car lengths ahead - not streets ahead. And the Commodore actually outstopped it, by a car length. I wish they'd done the slalom test with ESC off. The Falcon was about two seconds faster around the track, easily accounted for by 10% more power and 20% more gears.

Really, it was interesting how close they were - pretty much like they've always been.

It'd be interesting to repeat that excercise with the SS, XR8 and XR6T. I think it'd be close.
Omega was outclassed. The lower end engine and 4 speed really do let it down. Also the drag was not exactly best for the commodores engine as the engine produces its peak power at higher revs, which without sports mode enabled wouldn't reach that zone. Either way they need to test the SV6 V the XR6 for a fairer comparison on cars. Both with 5 speed autos and both the entry level sports sedan.
 

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On the contrary, I think it was a fair comparison. The both cost about the same. They are both entry level. Whilst your SV6 vs. XR6 comparison would make things closer, it doesn't make XT vs. Omega any less valid.

Both are pretty good cars and I think the childish section where they went drifting (of sorts :D) was a good demonstration of just how far the family 6 has really come. Could you imagine doing that in a VN? Sure its possible but it would be on the edge of flipping like cheese omelette. I thoroughly enjoyed the segment.:yup:
 

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Oh i don't mean that the test wasn't fair for the cars, i just meant spec wise a comparison between XR6 and SV6 would have been better. I'm just more keen to see the drag between these two. I'd expect the Falcon to be ahead but only marginally
 

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On Saturday night's (22/11/2008) Channel 9 News, they showed a 97 year old former Holden Engineer who had worked on the 48-215 (FX).

Quite a character and helped cut the big cake Holden had put on!


Mike
 

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BUMP

This weekend there will be a documentary on the 60th Anniversary on TV. I guess it will be a similar thing to the 50th, though no Greg Norman.

Saturday 4:30 pm on Nine - in Sydney anyway - check your local guides.

SATURDAY 06 December
04:30 pm Australia's Own Car - 60 Years of Holden PG TV-PG Documentary, No Captions Nine
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

You'd be right if you meant 100% new chassis Commodore.. the 48 series, HQ and LH were 100% new chassis not "bodged on someone else's car".
The 48 series was based on the prewar monocoque Chev Y-195-15 which was never built due to WWII.

The prototypes were built in the US and it used a development of the Chev OHV six.

The HQ used engineering based off the coil-spring fullsize Chevs of the late sixties, albeit with bolton subframes rather than a full BOF chassis, not to mention picking up Chevelle pushme-pullyou styling. You can bolt HQ-HZ stub axles straight on any big Chev past the '57/ (although the geometry might be wrong the balljoints, tapers etc are the same).


The LH also was largely derived from the underbody and styling shared with the early 70's Opel/Vauxhall Ascona and Manta, Chev Vega and Monza; and like the Ford Cortina in the case of Ford, was adapted for bigger engines etc by Holden.



The VE doesn't owe much to anyone in engineering, except maybe a little to Audi for styling influence.
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

The 48 series was based on the prewar monocoque Chev Y-195-15 which was never built due to WWII.

The prototypes were built in the US and it used a development of the Chev OHV six.

The HQ used engineering based off the coil-spring fullsize Chevs of the late sixties, albeit with bolton subframes rather than a full chassis, not to mention picking up Chevelle pushme-pullyou styling.


The LH also was largely derived from the underbody shared with the early 70's Opel Ascona, Chev Vega and Monza; and like the Ford Cortina in the case of Ford, was adapted for Holden mechanicals bigger engines etc by Holden.



The VE doesn't owe much to anyone in engineering, except maybe a little to Audi for styling influence.
Think we'll have to agree to disagree with each other as I consider nothing that you mention above = "bodging off someone else's car" of which an example for me is the VB and VN and VTs "bodging off" the Opel Rekord E /Omega A/ B, in that they shared to varying degrees body panels and other critical design features. The LH was similar to Ascona but shared nothing specifically except maybe the 1900 engine and was a size larger. The HQ shared some design features with the cars you mention (and much more specifically the 70-72 Pontiac LeMans styling than the 68-69 Chevelle's) but nothing really interchanged. (I thought if anything you'd quote F-body and '68 X-body similarities!). The 48 was completely redesigned from the original Chev prototype (which could hardly be called someone else's car since it never hit a production line). Perhaps I'll take your word on the engine because I believe the Y-195-15 had a 4 (or dio I recall that it was built with a 6 too to test which was the better way to go for an engine this size?) and I don't know how close the Stovebolt and the Holden grey engine were, although you'd think the latter would have benefited from another decade of design improvements.
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

Think we'll have to agree to disagree with each other as I consider nothing that you mention above = "bodging off someone else's car" of which an example for me is the VB and VN and VTs "bodging off" the Opel Rekord E /Omega A/ B, in that they shared to varying degrees body panels and other critical design features. The LH was similar to Ascona but shared nothing specifically except maybe the 1900 engine and was a size larger. The HQ shared some design features with the cars you mention (and much more specifically the 70-72 Pontiac LeMans styling than the 68-69 Chevelle's) but nothing really interchanged. (I thought if anything you'd quote F-body and '68 X-body similarities!). The 48 was completely redesigned from the original Chev prototype (which could hardly be called someone else's car since it never hit a production line). Perhaps I'll take your word on the engine because I believe the Y-195-15 had a 4 (or dio I recall that it was built with a 6 too to test which was the better way to go for an engine this size?) and I don't know how close the Stovebolt and the Holden grey engine were, although you'd think the latter would have benefited from another decade of design improvements.
The Chev engine was an OHV inline six with splash-fed mains. Holden pressure-fed the whole crank, and added some more modern features. I've been told by FX/FJonistas that the crankcases and crankshafts all came from foundries on the Clyde in Scotland because Holden couldn't cast them until almost the red motor.


This is the 1949 Velox made from 1846 - looks like an FJ, no? Windshield, roofline look like the Chev. It's like a halfway house to the FX - down to bolton rear guards.

Holden assembled and sold Veloxes until the fifties. They even had a 138 cu in OHV engine of about 60hp. Apparently the Vauxhall Velox six crank directly interchanges into the 132/138 - that may be apocryphal and I can't verify it personally. I've got an FX with FJ motor, but no Velox.


My point is, while very few parts will bolt between any of the cars I listed and their Hplden equivalents, Holden was adopting styling, engineering or in some cases parts from elsewhere in the GM world, and wasn't calling the shots.

With VE, Holden doesn't owe anything to anyone for the major aesthetic design or hardware; it's their own design, design language and production methodology.

I've always been a fan of Holden's adaptability, and until the XR Falcons to me very much played second fiddle. With the VE, they can even claim the engine because they co-operated in it's design and development. While the red/blue/black six and 253/308 V8 were Holden's work they didn't really get better after the red motors, apart from the very late 5 litres.

A lot of that wasn't Holden's fault or preferrence - the SOHC V8 Holden developed in the 80's was apparently good for 300hp in compliant form when the Chev 350 of the 80's was good for not much more than half that. GM apparently killed that because they were committed to the LSx by then. Like the GTR-X and other interesting projects Holden had.
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

Holden assembled and sold Veloxes until the fifties. They even had a 138 cu in OHV engine of about 60hp. Apparently the Vauxhall Velox six crank directly interchanges into the 132/138 - that may be apocryphal and I can't verify it personally. I've got an FX with FJ motor, but no Velox.
Grouse to have an Early Holden owner/member on GMI :cool:

Also heard lore about Vauxhall cranks being used in Holden Greys for racing, as the Holden crank was notoriously weak, and recently saw this info (below) relating to Vauxhall cranks in Holdens, from this bloke (youtube) (< don't you miss That Unmistakable Sound resonating through the suburbs every night just after the pubs closed?)

(summarised version)
'These Vauxhall engines were only out for a certain period ie 52-54 then eng design changed. Obvious was the location of dist. However, mods required to rear main seal, and front of crank nose and other areas. Two current Humpy racers that have Vauxhall cranks are Eddie Dobbs (ex Blanchard FE) and Phil Munday's, Ian Tate prep'd Brock Goodwood car.'

I've been told by FX/FJonistas that the crankcases and crankshafts all came from foundries on the Clyde in Scotland because Holden couldn't cast them until almost the red motor.
From Norm Darwin's The History of Holden since 1917, page 156:

"The first 48/215s ran Canadian cast blocks and Scottish forged crankshafts , the Australian cast block came into being at engine No 1002, January 1949. These Canadian blocks were popular with the racing fraternity as they could be bored to 3 1/4" + 0.40."
________________

FWIW I dug out this related Holden engine-manufacturing trivia:
GM Holden were casting Chevrolet blocks in 1937?. Part number 1788201 R in serial. ( I've seen it on one or two )

From what I understand Holden was casting a few different blocks during the war. Things like Tiger Moth engines and Ford V8s for Bren Gun Carriers and Gray Marine engines.
GMH Fishermans Bend design of the Holden pictured beside 1940 Chevrolet, it was designed when Hartnett was General Manager.
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

Holden assembled and sold Veloxes until the fifties. They even had a 138 cu in OHV engine of about 60hp. Apparently the Vauxhall Velox six crank directly interchanges into the 132/138 - that may be apocryphal and I can't verify it personally. I've got an FX with FJ motor, but no Velox.
I've got two Velox sedans made in England...



And the rare Velox Ute made by Holden in Australia alongside the Holden Ute. It is the same color with the same wheels and hubcaps and trim as the second blue Ute in this pic, but has the same grill as the grey one.....




;)
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

The Chev engine was an OHV inline six with splash-fed mains. Holden pressure-fed the whole crank, and added some more modern features. I've been told by FX/FJonistas that the crankcases and crankshafts all came from foundries on the Clyde in Scotland because Holden couldn't cast them until almost the red motor.


This is the 1949 Velox made from 1846 - looks like an FJ, no? Windshield, roofline look like the Chev. It's like a halfway house to the FX - down to bolton rear guards.

Holden assembled and sold Veloxes until the fifties. They even had a 138 cu in OHV engine of about 60hp. Apparently the Vauxhall Velox six crank directly interchanges into the 132/138 - that may be apocryphal and I can't verify it personally. I've got an FX with FJ motor, but no Velox.


My point is, while very few parts will bolt between any of the cars I listed and their Hplden equivalents, Holden was adopting styling, engineering or in some cases parts from elsewhere in the GM world, and wasn't calling the shots.

With VE, Holden doesn't owe anything to anyone for the major aesthetic design or hardware; it's their own design, design language and production methodology.

I've always been a fan of Holden's adaptability, and until the XR Falcons to me very much played second fiddle. With the VE, they can even claim the engine because they co-operated in it's design and development. While the red/blue/black six and 253/308 V8 were Holden's work they didn't really get better after the red motors, apart from the very late 5 litres.

A lot of that wasn't Holden's fault or preferrence - the SOHC V8 Holden developed in the 80's was apparently good for 300hp in compliant form when the Chev 350 of the 80's was good for not much more than half that. GM apparently killed that because they were committed to the LSx by then. Like the GTR-X and other interesting projects Holden had.
May I offer a correction there please.

The mains were pressure fed - the big ends were splash fed!

I had a Chevy 48 Ute for food deliveries - the cold pressure was about 40 psi, the warm pressure was about 15-20 psi. Man, never break a rear axle because almost always broke just out of the diff centre and of course, the axles were held in place by the clips within the diff centre!!!! I had two occasions where she came to a stop with the rear wheel assembly about 400 mm out of the axle housing!!!

My first car (When I was a milk-bar cowboy) was an ex Department of Supply Maralinga Gray FJ Ute which we bought at the Auctions for 165 Aussie pounds in 1960.

I used that Ute for milk-rounds for 62-65.

In 1965, I fitted a Wray Vane-type Supercharger to it and milled the head to take 179 stellite Valves and lower the CR. I milled and fitted Q7 Steel straps across the main bearing caps to beef up the bottom end.

That engine was so soft it could pull from 10mph through to top speed of about 90 mph in top gear in pretty smart time for a grey motor. Had an Alex Rowe Floor shift on the 3 speed and the shifts were much quicker than the synchromesh clutches that Holden used.

Also had 11' disc brakes on the front - a NSW-based company made them to fit onto the large diameter 15" wheel hubs.

And as I was doing a fair bit of F2 racing in that era, I had Dunlop R5 Racing tyres on her. (you'd never get away with running racing rubber these days!!!) I had ladder braces through out the frame to strengthen the Y subframes to the chassis rails that were in the Utes and Panel Vans of that era

Took her to Darwin in 1968 and sold her when I got the brand new 1969 HT 253 Ute.

Mike
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

I've got two Velox sedans made in England...

And the rare Velox Ute made by Holden in Australia alongside the Holden Ute. It is the same color with the same wheels and hubcaps and trim as the second blue Ute in this pic, but has the same grill as the grey one.....


;)
Nice to know that some real auto enthusiasts live on this site. Good on you MonaroSS :).
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

I've got two Velox sedans made in England...



And the rare Velox Ute made by Holden in Australia alongside the Holden Ute. It is the same color with the same wheels and hubcaps and trim as the second blue Ute in this pic, but has the same grill as the grey one.....




;)
Nice.
Did you purposely go for UK Veloxes? or it just worked out that way?

When I win lotto I'd like to be able to stick a Vauxy in the shed with an Holden made Buick, Rugby, Chev & Pontiac. A Ute or Vagabond would be nice. An Australian Six would be a nice pick up as well.
Dreams...........
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

Nice.
Did you purposely go for UK Veloxes? or it just worked out that way?

When I win lotto I'd like to be able to stick a Vauxy in the shed with an Holden made Buick, Rugby, Chev & Pontiac. A Ute or Vagabond would be nice. An Australian Six would be a nice pick up as well.
Dreams...........
They were added to my collection courtesy of my Dad passing away several years back. He had them since I was a kid. One sedan is a 'parts' car after Dad put it on it's roof racing around the paddock against one of his mate's FJ racing cars.

I was never into these earlier Veloxes like Dad, except the Ute which I have always wanted to put a period 53 Caddy V8 in, and make it a great tow vehicle for the collection. Yes sacrilege, but it would still be cool to paint it jet black, lower it, weld wider rims onto the 16 inch steel wheels and chrome them but retain the original caps. And take out the perfect original interior, put it in storage, and replace it with a tan custom leather interior made from the 'parts' car. I just like the burble and power of V8's...



Dad and I both suffered from the same disease. We know how to buy cars, not so much how to sell them. :D

The cure is a farm and big sheds.....



;)
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

They were added to my collection courtesy of my Dad passing away several years back. He had them since I was a kid. One sedan is a 'parts' car after Dad put it on it's roof racing around the paddock against one of his mate's FJ racing cars.

I was never into these earlier Veloxes like Dad, except the Ute which I have always wanted to put a period 53 Caddy V8 in, and make it a great tow vehicle for the collection. Yes sacrilege, but it would still be cool to paint it jet black, lower it, weld wider rims onto the 16 inch steel wheels and chrome them but retain the original caps. And take out the perfect original interior, put it in storage, and replace it with a tan custom leather interior made from the 'parts' car. I just like the burble and power of V8's...



Dad and I both suffered from the same disease. We know how to buy cars, not so much how to sell them. :D

The cure is a farm and big sheds.....



;)
Arh yes, that'd be cool!
Would the original centre caps fit on 16"s? or would you need specials in the same style?
Farm and a big shed hey, thats what i'm doing wrong. I can even garage all of my 3 cars. :(
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

I like the Vauxy Ute. I also like the vanguard ones as well and the big Chrsyler ones. Its a pity there is not as many old utes around as there should be.
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

Actually these model Veloxes had a few neat tricks. First the bonnet opened to the side as in the pic below. But you could also close it and open it again from the other side. And two of you can open it from both sides at once and lift the bonnet off completely. Great for a show and shine...:D

Also the windows in my Ute have no window winders. They are counter balanced and have a square tab glued to the inside top of the window which you just grab and slide it down open. But if you try to slide the window down from the outside it won't. I think they have something like felt on the outside and rubber on the inside of the slide track so pushing from inside doesn't jam but pushing from the outside against the rubber does.

They are so much faster to open and close than a winding window.





;)
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

Actually these model Veloxes had a few neat tricks. First the bonnet opened to the side as in the pic below. But you could also close it and open it again from the other side. And two of you can open it from both sides at once and lift the bonnet off completely. Great for a show and shine...:D

Also the windows in my Ute have no window winders. They are counter balanced and have a square tab glued to the inside top of the window which you just grab and slide it down open. But if you try to slide the window down from the outside it won't. I think they have something like felt on the outside and rubber on the inside of the slide track so pushing from inside doesn't jam but pushing from the outside against the rubber does.

They are so much faster to open and close than a winding window.





;)
That is neat!

I've started a collection of car badges, I figure they're cheaper and easier to store than the actual cars, one of the few that I've got is that Vauxhall badge off the bonnet of the Velox as in that picture.
Griffins are pretty cool beasts.
 

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Re: The Next Holden Commodore: The Countdown Begins!

I really like the look of their front end. Very tidy.

I've still got a long way to go before I have the space time and money to have more than the cars I have. I can't even get my $10k HQ on the go yet! I've still got master maks hot wheels collection to amuse myself, though he didn't appreciate me buying him a Chevelle when he wanted a monster truck. :D

one day.
 
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