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Yup. THe 3 "ULS" sedans were mentioned a while back. This time, they mention price. Which I find pretty interesting.

The low-end ULS is $60-70K. We can extrapolate pricing for the new STS and DTS from that. WHich means STS will be extremely competitive with the competition. However, if Buick is going to ented teh $60K market... then there will be some issues. But we'll see.

The $120K ULS seems like an interesting car.... as does the $300K. I'm not sure about the production numbers though. I would think Cadillac would be able to sell more than the 5000/2000/200 respectively. I would assume it would be more like 15,000/5000/500.

Also, I'm assuming that the car would be built on the same platform with entirely different exteriors and interiors.
 

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from the article:

"Anything that lifts people's heads, gets them thinking about our market sector and forces them to compare cars in the sector is healthy for the sector," said Alasdair Stewart, chief executive of Bentley Cars of North America.



very interesting comment. i'd think bentley'd be worried... losing 50 sales in a 200/year portfolio (i made up 200... i dunno how many betleys sell yearly) is a huge deal. perhaps he's just trying to save face... or perhaps it's true... that interest in ultra luxury cars benefits (expands) the entire market.
 

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First off, releasing all three at the same time, not working their way up one at a time, would be ultimate stupidity.

But secondly, is the market even going to pay over $120K for a brand that also offers a $30K model? No other brand is, not even Mercedes could -- and no offense to Cadillac, but they can't either. They'd have to abandon the sub-$70K market and give it all to Buick, and they won't do that. Last I checked, these delusions of grandeur stemmed from Cadillac's successes predominantly in the sub-$50K segment.

Do an $80-$100K sedan, including a V12, give the market time to warm up to that milestone, and assess the virtues of something bigger later. Any greater stretch is rooted in arrogance, and that's a recipe for failure.
 

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Originally posted by desmo9@Feb 27 2004, 01:27 AM
First off, releasing all three at the same time, not working their way up one at a time, would be ultimate stupidity.

But secondly, is the market even going to pay over $120K for a brand that also offers a $30K model? No other brand is, not even Mercedes could -- and no offense to Cadillac, but they can't either. They'd have to abandon the sub-$70K market and give it all to Buick, and they won't do that. Last I checked, these delusions of grandeur stemmed from Cadillac's successes predominantly in the sub-$50K segment.

Do an $80-$100K sedan, including a V12, give the market time to warm up to that milestone, and assess the virtues of something bigger later. Any greater stretch is rooted in arrogance, and that's a recipe for failure.
youve gotta be kidding me.

have you heared of the Mercadees Mclaren SLK?

Top end BMW 7 series?

Caddy can do it as long as they make a good car. and continue to make good cars. and the 80k version 120k version and 300k version will not look alike, they wont be same sausage different langth.
 

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Originally posted by Smilingoat@Feb 27 2004, 01:44 AM

youve gotta be kidding me.

have you heared of the Mercadees Mclaren SLK?

Top end BMW 7 series?

Caddy can do it as long as they make a good car. and continue to make good cars. and the 80k version 120k version and 300k version will not look alike, they wont be same sausage different langth.
That's why I said OVER $120K, as in over top-end BMW 7-series. Read before you refute.

Every hear of the Maybach? Why isn't it called a Mercedes?

Ever hear of Rolls? Why do you suppose a brand with BMW's pedigree was so eager to acquire it?

Case upon case has been written on this very topic. $30K to $300K is too great a stretch. Marketing 101.

And you might better recognize the value of a buck before you'd suggest they invest a couple billion of them on such a car.
 

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Wait a second. Somehow I have trouble imagining that they could build a $60,000-70,000 car in such small numbers and make it economically feasible. No way.

Look at BMW: world prodution of 7's is 30,000 to 40,000 units annually. Mercedes S is over 100,000 units.

Cadillac's going to compete with them, charge less, and build only 5,000 units a year?

Sorry, that just doesn't add up.

(Though, now I"m having an intersting thought here: they are going to do 20,000 units of the Pontiac Solstice and sell 'em for a mere $20,000 a pop. They're actually doing that. Has GM managed to repeal some fundamental law of automotive economics?)
 

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Originally posted by AMcA@Feb 27 2004, 03:27 AM

(Though, now I"m having an intersting thought here: they are going to do 20,000 units of the Pontiac Solstice and sell 'em for a mere $20,000 a pop.  They're actually doing that.  Has GM managed to repeal some fundamental law of automotive economics?)
The Solstice you can actually figure based on a multitude of cars sharing underpinnings. The marginal investment is predominantly skin.

But what the heck else in the world is going to share this platform with Cadillac?

Excitement here is understandable, but many don't seem to be tempering it with business savvy. They must not own any GM stock....or they are Ford lovers in disguise. :eek:
 

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Well MB has A-Class in Europe and their top end Maybach and the Mercedes SLR. For them it has worked out without any problems whatsoever. Okay okay so the European market is different and we don't have the A-Class here (yet), but we do have the C-Class coupe which right now I can get for less then $26,000. Rap stars, rich people, Simon Cowell, celebrities all have a Maybach a 57 or a 62. Though the 62 means you have to have a chauffee to really enjoy the car. The orders on SLR are already piling or and the car is a hit. I personally don't think it qualifies as a supercar, but more of a really fast GT cruiser. Anyways if Cadillac would come out with 3 really beautifull new models that would be terrific. I personally would love to see the Sixteen concept made and compete with Maybach. I remember the luxury Cads of the 30's, so much style and prestige. Well thats what GM needs to do with that brand right now. I think all of their products right now are terrific with exception of DTS which I'm assuming will be replaced in next couple of years. I'd also love to see a performance coupe to compete with CL and 6er with the convertible option of course and of course a smaller roadster. I think with that line-up Cadillac can compete with the best of the luxury brands out there. It needs to compete with BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti, and Acura. Buick doesn't have an image right now, well it doesn't seem like it has organized line-up. I think it should compete with Lexus. Meaning more concervative styling, with good Lexus like isolation materials, quiet ride and I think it would do well. Have a model to compete with ES300, RX300, and LS400, plus a nice boulevard cruiser would help. Either that or kill Buick all together!
 

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No, no, no, Cadillac! As much as it would be great to see over-the-top Caddies on the road, there is still work to be done on your bread-and-butter cars. You have not yet rounded out the C-class and S-class Caddies, and you've yet to successfully launch the D-class (nee Deville).

And what's Lutz talking about: "we have plenty of capital?" Really? GM has plenty of money? Is that why Buick is getting rebadged vehicles (Terraza and Rainier) instead of investing cash on Buick directly? Is that why we have to wait to the second half of the decade to see the reshaping of Buick? Is that why Saturn's are woefully inadequate in just about every way? Really?

I knew this would happen to Cadillac. Short-term success would breed a loss of focus. Instead of hearing about ULS's, I want to hear about the 2007/2008 second generation CTS with a more powerful VVT V-6 (maybe even a hybrid or limited-edition FCV) and a coupe/convertible version. What about an "STC?" Maybe I can buy a car slightly more pricey than the D-Class, but all this talk about a $100,000+ Cadillac seems premature.

And why aren't we hearing more about investment in the very mundane like buidling more Lansing plants that crank out superior quality cars with the most modern of manufacturing processes? Manufacturing may be painfully boring to some people, for sure, but it sure would give GM an edge over most companies if all its plants followed the Lansing Way.

Focus, GM, focus! There's plenty of work to be done with what is already on your plate. Don't go biting off more than you can chew.
 

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But secondly, is the market even going to pay over $120K for a brand that also offers a $30K model?


Just to clear the air....

BMW's base 325 has an MSRP of $28,100. The BMW 760iL has an MSRP of around $120,000 and with the few options that are available, you can get it up to $123,880. Also remember the now discontinued Z8 was more than $120,000 too.

Mercedes-Benz base C230 4cylinder starts at $29,250 and the SL600 and S600 models both start around $122,000 "base", (if a $100,000+ car can be called that!), when you pile on all the available MB goodies, like radar cruise and air-conditioned seats, etc. The SL600 rings up and $142,940 and the S600 chimes in at $143,370.

Also, I believe that all Maybachs are sold at current Mercedes-Benz dealerships, so they share the same showroom space with lesser Mercedes vehicles. I dont think that there is anyone who cant see the similarities from and Sclass to a Maybach.

Is that why Buick is getting rebadged vehicles (Terraza and Rainier) instead of investing cash on Buick directly? Is that why we have to wait to the second half of the decade to see the reshaping of Buick?

What about the LaCROSSE? Thats not a rebadged vehicle and really neither is the Rainer, there were enough changes made in the car, that it can be considered unique to Buick, true that it is a version of the GMT 300 utility, but you can say the same about a Aviator and Explorer, RX300 and Highlander, Armada and Infiniti QX-56, etc. etc...
 

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Originally posted by MCGARRETT@Feb 27 2004, 04:35 PM
What about the LaCROSSE? Thats not a rebadged vehicle and really neither is the Rainer, there were enough changes made in the car, that it can be considered unique to Buick, true that it is a version of the GMT 300 utility, but you can say the same about a Aviator and Explorer, RX300 and Highlander, Armada and Infiniti QX-56, etc. etc...
"What about the LaCROSSE?" If you're insinuating that the LaCrosse is something to trumpet about, so be it. I will disagree wholeheartedly with you on that point.

"...and really neither is the Rainer." You must suffer from severe myopia. Stat ophthalmology consult!

"there were enough changes made in the car, that it can be considered unique to Buick" Sure, in a Hitler-is-different-than-Hussein sort of way, I suppose.

"but you can say the same about a Aviator and Explorer, RX300 and Highlander, Armada and Infiniti QX-56, etc. etc..." No, you really can't. While the Aviator and Explorer are badge-engineering done wrong, the RX330 and Highlander are done right, as evidenced by both of their successes. The Rainier and other GM mid-utlities are mildly different themes on the same platform (please, no lectures on suspensions and interior nuances). If you think that the successful RX330 and Highlander are done in the same way, then your vision is worse than I first suspected.

And let's be clear on one point. Just because another company endorses a questionable practice does not justify GM's doing the same thing. I care when GM goes awry because I'm invested in a variety of ways in GM's success. That's why I sing their praises and am critical of their flaws.
 

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Originally posted by MCGARRETT@Feb 27 2004, 04:35 PM
But secondly, is the market even going to pay over $120K for a brand that also offers a $30K model?


Just to clear the air....

BMW's base 325 has an MSRP of $28,100. The BMW 760iL has an MSRP of around $120,000 and with the few options that are available, you can get it up to $123,880. Also remember the now discontinued Z8 was more than $120,000 too.


Right, see that's why I said $30K to $120K. Make it $140K if you wish. Without spelling it out, my point was that other premium brands have determined that if they want to play in the entry-luxury, $30K class, they cannot reach much beyond the low $100s. Whether it's $120K or $140K, no matter....we're not splitting hairs about a $150K Cadillac...we're talking about the appropriateness of a $300K model.

The Maybach was not called a Mercedes for a reason.. much the way GM needs Cadillac above Chevrolet. If you've attended any shows, you'd have noticed that the Maybach booth was separate from Mercedes' booth. They don't really want to draw a huge line between them. Is it OK for people to know the Maybach was created by folks that make the S600? Sure. But people shelling out $300K will be looking for exclusivity beyond the "Benz" that every wannbe Tom, **** and George is driving....more braggin rights than "I drive a Mercedes Z800." Rather, "I drive a Maybach"... or Bentley, Rolls, etc... Certainly not Cadillac. If Cadillac really wants to play way up there, they'll need to let other brands occupy the sub-$70K segment IMO. Is that Lutz's vision? If Pontiac is an affordable BMW, Buick is an American Lexus (and thus Mercedes to a point), then perhaps Cadillac is to trying to go head to head with the Maybachs? Hah. No offense to Cadillac, but that's quite aggressive and hard to visualize. The lower-end of Cadillac's line is doing too well for them to abandon it.
 

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Originally posted by tgagneguam@Feb 27 2004, 02:35 PM
Focus, GM, focus! There's plenty of work to be done with what is already on your plate. Don't go biting off more than you can chew.
i originally thought one (but not three!) ultra-luxury cars could fit within cadillac's portfolio... though perhaps south of $300,000 (!)... but i think perhaps this guy makes a good point. i like cadillacs lineup now, but they really have to stay on top of things and make sure they retain their edge and don't just drift off into mediocrity again.

and yet the IDEA of a stratospheric cadillac sedan for the upper upper crust is very appealing... utlimate halo car. obviously cadillac is the most credible slot for such a car. i'd think that perhaps dabbling in the middle of the ultra-lux playground ($125-175k, perhaps?!?) would be a better baby-step. see how well revieved a V12 cadillac is, and then see if the customers are complaining about the lack of luxury, and want more.
 

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Hmm... I agree, baby steps. A $75-80k car would be a good start. If it goes well, try a $150k "ultimate" halo car. But forget $300k. Unless it's got the offroad capabilities of a Hummer H1, the on-track and top-speed abilities of a McLaren F1, the spaciousness of a super-stretch Escalade, and the fuel economy of a Prius, it's going to be hard to make it stand out enough from the Caddy lineup to justify such a price tag. At that level, people want exclusivity, which is something that a brand selling a couple hundred thousand units a year just can't provide. So what if only a few hundred are built every year? It's still a Caddilac, and when you're dumping $300k on a car, you expect (and rather deserve) something more exclusive.
 

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I hope Cadillac's should build all three. Cadillac needs to be a domestic Rolls-Royce. While cadillac slowely rolls out with these three cars they should slowly drop the cts and other low priced cars. Cadillac should sell cars from $60,000-$300,000+ Buick should sell under that. Buick should also sell cars in Europe as its new lineup rolls out.
 

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Originally posted by desmo9@Feb 26 2004, 08:27 PM
First off, releasing all three at the same time, not working their way up one at a time, would be ultimate stupidity.

But secondly, is the market even going to pay over $120K for a brand that also offers a $30K model? No other brand is, not even Mercedes could -- and no offense to Cadillac, but they can't either. They'd have to abandon the sub-$70K market and give it all to Buick, and they won't do that. Last I checked, these delusions of grandeur stemmed from Cadillac's successes predominantly in the sub-$50K segment.

Do an $80-$100K sedan, including a V12, give the market time to warm up to that milestone, and assess the virtues of something bigger later. Any greater stretch is rooted in arrogance, and that's a recipe for failure.
I agree... release 3 at the same time is stupid. THey need to work their way up; furthermore, releasing the $300K one before the $80K one is stupid too. Kind of like a certain German car company we all know and love did. ;)

I don't see a problem with a $120K Cadillac. I don't see the problem with people paying that amount of money for a Cadillac. Maybe not now.... but in 5 years when the public finally realizes that Cadillac is here to stay and Cadillac's revolution is complete. So what if the car company has a $30K car in the same lineup with a $120K car. Mercedes has it. In fact, Mercedes has $30-250K, and in EUrope, the spread is even larger. These car companies can do it because they have brand name recognition in that marketplace. Cadillac's rebuilding their brand, and everrything should be in place in 5 years. Just the fact that they are trying to build a business case for it, means that Cadillac is on the right path. The "ULS" just needs to be a very convincing car that will hold its ground against the 750/760 and the S-Class and the A8.

I don't think this venture is "rooted in arrrogance." VW Phaeton was a venture in arrogance. ULS-$120K... is not. $300K.... may be a little arrogant... but definitely not the $120K.
 

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Originally posted by desmo9@Feb 26 2004, 10:22 PM

That's why I said OVER $120K, as in over top-end BMW 7-series. Read before you refute.

Every hear of the Maybach? Why isn't it called a Mercedes?

Ever hear of Rolls? Why do you suppose a brand with BMW's pedigree was so eager to acquire it?

Case upon case has been written on this very topic. $30K to $300K is too great a stretch. Marketing 101.

And you might better recognize the value of a buck before you'd suggest they invest a couple billion of them on such a car.
Pigs are flying today. I keep agreeing with you.... it's beginning to scare me. :blink:

$120K is certainly doable for Cadillac. In fact, it's necessary. $300K is an entirely different story. I'm not fully convinved the brand can stretch that far up. And the $300K-ULS will have to be heads and shoulder better in every way over the $120K-ULS. It's not competing with the measley 7 and S at that point. They'd be staring the Phantom right in the headlights.

Cadillac once competed with the Rolls... back in the golden age of Cadillac --the 20s and 30s. If Cadillac wanted to compete with them now, they need to regain the aura of supreme luxury... which it hasn't had in over half a century. That is difficult. It really is the only way to regain the "Standard of the World" moniker.

It's very very different world now.
 

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Originally posted by desmo9@Feb 26 2004, 10:31 PM

The Solstice you can actually figure based on a multitude of cars sharing underpinnings. The marginal investment is predominantly skin.
But what the heck else in the world is going to share this platform with Cadillac?
Excitement here is understandable, but many don't seem to be tempering it with business savvy. They must not own any GM stock....or they are Ford lovers in disguise. :eek:
It is obvious GM is in the business to make money.
Somehow, GM has found a way to manufacture cars at extreme low volume and somehow eek out a profit.

I know... it sounds virtually impossible. The big question is....HOW GM is able to attain these numbers. These cars simply can't be a "loss leader" in any segment.

I don't think any analyst -- auto, financial, etc -- has really hit on it yet. These are ridiculously low production numbers. So unless GM is purposely squeezing its own margins (unlikely), something else is happening.

What else could share the underpinnings of a $80K/$120K/$300K ULS? Nothing. Hence my theory of "something else is happening."
 

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Originally posted by tgagneguam@Feb 27 2004, 09:35 AM
No, no, no, Cadillac! As much as it would be great to see over-the-top Caddies on the road, there is still work to be done on your bread-and-butter cars. You have not yet rounded out the C-class and S-class Caddies, and you've yet to successfully launch the D-class (nee Deville).

And what's Lutz talking about: "we have plenty of capital?" Really? GM has plenty of money? Is that why Buick is getting rebadged vehicles (Terraza and Rainier) instead of investing cash on Buick directly? Is that why we have to wait to the second half of the decade to see the reshaping of Buick? Is that why Saturn's are woefully inadequate in just about every way? Really?

I knew this would happen to Cadillac. Short-term success would breed a loss of focus. Instead of hearing about ULS's, I want to hear about the 2007/2008 second generation CTS with a more powerful VVT V-6 (maybe even a hybrid or limited-edition FCV) and a coupe/convertible version. What about an "STC?" Maybe I can buy a car slightly more pricey than the D-Class, but all this talk about a $100,000+ Cadillac seems premature.

And why aren't we hearing more about investment in the very mundane like buidling more Lansing plants that crank out superior quality cars with the most modern of manufacturing processes? Manufacturing may be painfully boring to some people, for sure, but it sure would give GM an edge over most companies if all its plants followed the Lansing Way.

Focus, GM, focus! There's plenty of work to be done with what is already on your plate. Don't go biting off more than you can chew.
ULS is still 5-6 years down the road. It's not like it's going to launch next year.
DTS is due out soon. Escalade-V is en route. STS-V is porbably en route. CTC is still rumored. Etc etc.

Remember, Cadillac (and the big SUV's) yield the highest profit margins for GM. The stronger Cadillac becomes, the stronger GM's bottom line becomes.

Give GM time.... there is only so much money to go around. And it's not like Saturn isn't getting any product. ION and VUE Redline are out... and they're quite impressive. Relay is another story I won't go into.
And what's wrong with LaCrosse/Allure??? That's a new product. And Ranier isn't exactly a rebadge TBlazer. It's got extensive modifications underneath.

Cadillac is looking at Hybrid technology, not to mention DOD for future Caddys. I don't expect to see an "STC" anytime soon. Remember, they did just discontinue the ETC. I would much rather see a CTC, Escalade-V, STS-V, and SRX-V.

Just remember the ULS is still at least 5 years down the line.
 
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