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NICE CARS NIKIVEE.....Heres to being happy all the time B)






aww, it still looks like a dolled up Grand AM/Prix. Similiar to how the Lexus RX300 is a dolled up RAV4.

C'mon give us style, design...not re-badges.
YEAH......the original GTO was NEVER a rebaged version of a Tempest/LeMans....ahahahahahahaha....it rode on its own special platform....hahahahahhaha.....no no no...wait...it was not even a Pontiac....The original GTO was touched by the hand of God himself...it was so original and distinctive that John Z DeLorean blinded the designers who made the orginal so they would never design another car again....people were so stuned at the beauty of the orginal GTO that after seeing the original, they turned into salt.....ahahahahahahaha.....everything was better then...

It's interesting to see how many people look at the past through rose tinted glasses...

What color is the sky in your world?
 

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Let's remember though that in 1964 the Tempest/Le Mans was an all new design. (After the failure of the "curved" torqe tube trans-axle.)

The current GTO was originally developed/styled in the early '90s (maybe as far back as '91). It was introduced as the Opel Omega, Holden Commodore and Cadillac Catera. (Perform a search for these cars in these years and you will see something that looks like the GTO with 4 doors.) Then Holden developed the coupe prototype in the late 90's (which looks a lot like the GTO). But even that is well over 5 years old.

Don't misunderstand me ... I'm not trying to start a flame war.

I am a huge Pontiac fan. I have been for years.

Do I think the new GTO is bad? No. Do I think it could be better? Absolutely!

I want Pontiac (and GM) to produce the best vehicles out there. Rather than dismiss what a lot of people would call flaws, I think we need to bring attention to them so that the general can fix the problems and come out with something even better next time around.

As far as the current GTO is concerned, I see 2 major flaws (nothing that hasn't been brought up already.) Lack of hood scoops is not the problem, I just see a very dated style. (Again, styled in the early 90's.) Hood scoops are just the easiest solution people suggest to give it a little style, but I (personally) don't think it is the correct solution. I look more at the rear quarters. Very plain. Nothing that breaks up the view for the eye. That is why it appears to have such a small rear wheel opening. You could try to fix it by adding flairs around the wheel wells (like the Holden Coupe 8) but that is just adding weight and cladding that has given Pontiac such a black eye recently. I think the only real solution is to wait for a restyle. I'm very anxious to see the new Buick coupe on the Kappa platform. I believe this will be our best indication of what the new GTO will look like.

The biggest problem I have with the new GTO is price. $33K is way too much for this car. I don't care if the fit and finish is top notch, that just means they are finally catching up with other foreign car makers. This car should sell for under $30K. (What happens when/if they add more options, like a Judge package? Will it really be worth $40K?) When the new Mustang GT comes out at $25 then GTO sales will drop dramatically. (I know the Mustang is a little smaller, but really it is the same demographic - RWD - V8 - affordable coupe.)

Just my opinion. Your welcome to your own as well.

Steve
'96 WS6 Trans Am
 

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The biggest problem I have with the new GTO is price. $33K is way too much for this car. I don't care if the fit and finish is top notch, that just means they are finally catching up with other foreign car makers. This car should sell for under $30K. (What happens when/if they add more options, like a Judge package? Will it really be worth $40K?) When the new Mustang GT comes out at $25 then GTO sales will drop dramatically. (I know the Mustang is a little smaller, but really it is the same demographic - RWD - V8 - affordable coupe.)



Heres what I dont get, $33,000 is to much for a modern, up to date chassic GTO with a usable back seat, better interior and more features, but $33,000 was not too much for a solid axle Trans Am WS-6 with 325hp? HUH?

The only Mustang that can compete with the GTO would be the Cobra version, not the GT model which will probably have about 260 to 280 hp, which would make it about 70 to 80hp less.
 

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$33,000 IS too much for a solid axle Trans Am WS-6 with 325hp (although mine has 305hp). I paid $24k new for mine in Feb '96, but I will admit it stickered for right at $28 (so we can compare apples to apple). I love the style of the '96 WS-6, that is why I bought it, but I will admit that a non-WS6 Formula or Trans Am (or Camaro) would run right with my WS6 even though it was officially down 20 horses. The sticker on a Formula was about $23k in '96 if memory serves me, but you could probably buy one new for under $20k.

I think a '96 Formula (runs 0-60 in mid 5's stock just like the new GTO) for $23k makes more sense than $33k does today, even with the dollar adjusted 10 years.

Again, I don't want to get in a flame war. I just think it is overpriced. You think otherwise.

Regarding the new Mustang, the GT should be over 300 horse. With the lower weight I would say the Mustang would run right with the GTO. (All boils down to driver ability, right?) I wouldn't write it off. (I am not a Ford fan. I would never own a Ford. But I try to be honest and realistic when it comes to cars.)

Heck, I even read elsewhere on this site this morning that Chrysler has realized they have overprised most of their new cars and is cutting prices 15% on the Crossfire, PT Cruiser, etc. (They are doing this and lowering rebates.) GM should follow suit, in my opinion.

Steve
 

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The 2002 WS6 Trans Am was overpriced as well. (I think I said that, but I probably wasn't clear.)

I think if you got a loaded '02 WS6 it was close to 33K (31/32 I don't remember). Collectors Edition and/or convertible take it even higher.

If you don't care about wings and hood scoops you could get a non-WS6 for about 4k less. So now we are down in the high 20's. (Still too expensive if you ask me - but I know your not.)

Again, compare with the Mustang of the same years. (I'm not promoting Ford or Mustang. I don't like Mustangs.) They had less horsepower than the general but was still a performance car. (High 5's as opposed to mid 5's.) The Mustang was thousands of dollars cheaper than the GM cars. (I'm talking GT not Cobra.)

An now the Mustang lives and the f-body died.

I don't want the general to shoot itself in the foot again or I worry the GTO will not survive. I want it to survive, I really do! I want to see what happens with the restyle in a few years.

Look at what GM is offered for performance cars in the various price ranges:

20K : normal asp Solstice. (This would be more of a sporty car than a performance car, but oh well.)
25K : supercharged Solstice. (This is more like it, and I think it is priced reasonably as well.
33K : GTO (10 K is a big hole in the performance market. The Mustang GT will run away if GM doesn't fill this hole with it's own offering.)
45K : Cadillac CTX-V (At this dollar amount we are getting pretty exclusive.)
>50K : Corvette (Corvette runs with the big dogs, but for less money.)

What can fill that hole for GM? Drop the GTO in price. (Although we know that won't happen. I just hope it doesn't grow in price more than it currently is.) A more reasonable solution would be to bring back the Camaro. (Or call it something else, I don't care.) A coupe - over 300 horse - RWD. BETWEEN $25K and $30K!!

Other than a smaller back seat and a solid rear, what else would you take away from the GTO to create a Camaro for between $25k and $30K? Build quality? I don't think so.

Again, all of this is just my opinion. If you don't agree then that is fine. Call me a lunatic. I'll let this topic go before it degrades into a "My dad can beat up your dad!" kind of thing. I'll buy you a beer at the local pub next chance we get. We can talk cars. :)

Steve
 

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I was looking though a Pontiac enthusiast magazine this evening, and saw photos of a GTO Autocross show car that may point the way to the '05 GTO. I think it had the Ram Air type scoops, but it certainly had more aggressive body kit on it, with a new grille treatment and exhaust outlets, though I can't right now recall the exact layout of them.
 

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Well Iat least got to sit in a new GTO in Vegas a few weeks ago and let me tellya, I think that it's the most comfortable car that I've sat in for a very long time. How it drives? I don't know but IMHO I thought it was more roomy than my 2003 Grand Am GT SC/T and that there says a lot.
 

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nice pics 2 gto's and a GrandPrix



This is just another huge design blunder by GM, in an even longer line of design blunders... I hope this car tanks, might teach the bean counters and execs a lesson... bunch of fools.
 

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Originally posted by geronimo66@Apr 6 2004, 04:53 PM
nice pics 2 gto's and a GrandPrix



This is just another huge design blunder by GM, in an even longer line of design blunders... I hope this car tanks, might teach the bean counters and execs a lesson... bunch of fools.
yes, because GM designed every single aspect of this car. :rolleyes:
 

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No but they did design the sheetmetal... would have been easy to change the front end to look like anything other than a Grandprix. I love the chassis of the GTO, the intsrior is GM's first good one in years. Then they clad all that with a plan, turn no heads body.

The GTO has a huge followingm GM has slapped them all in the face with this mess. I am greatly disapointed in the GTO, I can only hope that the other platforms do better with the chassis.
 

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Originally posted by geronimo66@Apr 7 2004, 11:02 AM
No but they did design the sheetmetal... would have been easy to change the front end to look like anything other than a Grandprix. I love the chassis of the GTO, the intsrior is GM's first good one in years. Then they clad all that with a plan, turn no heads body.

The GTO has a huge followingm GM has slapped them all in the face with this mess. I am greatly disapointed in the GTO, I can only hope that the other platforms do better with the chassis.
So they should have made it look like what, something other than a Pontiac? Pontiac has it's trademark front end on most of it's cars. I doubt anyone would have been happy if they had put a totally different front end on the GTO that didn't even look like a Pontiac.
 

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are you slow.... so your telling me that every Pontiac must look like a grandprix. Get a clue please, what I am saying is that it would have been very easy to use design que's from say a 66 GTO to bring a nostalgic look to the new GTO, NOT a retro redo, but rather a flavor of the past. I have seen concepts that have done this, it worked well. The GTO is confused by many as a grandprix coupe, that is just wrong.
 

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Originally posted by geronimo66@Apr 7 2004, 11:02 AM
No but they did design the sheetmetal... would have been easy to change the front end to look like anything other than a Grandprix. I love the chassis of the GTO, the intsrior is GM's first good one in years. Then they clad all that with a plan, turn no heads body.

The GTO has a huge followingm GM has slapped them all in the face with this mess. I am greatly disapointed in the GTO, I can only hope that the other platforms do better with the chassis.
No they didnt design the sheetmetal, Holden did. All GM did was put on a pontiac nose so that it looks like the rest of the pontiacs. And it looks NOTHING like the Grand Prix. Zero, zilch, nothing like it. This is as much a GTO as any other GTO that ever has come from GM. The original GTO wasnt much more then a badged up Tempest. Only thing that makes this car look like a grand prix is the twin port grill. Well, using your logic that means the Solstice and new Vibe look like a grand prix.
Just like all MB, BMW, Chevy, Caddy, Mazda, Ford.... they all have a similar front end, so does that make them all look like eachother? There is nothing on the GTO that looks like a GP other then a twin port grill.
This IS a flavor from the past. Midsized coupe+big hp engine=GTO. This as much a GTO then any other GTO. PM NikiVee and you can se his collection of GTO's. He is a GTO die-hard, and he loves his new GTO. Try looking at a GTO up close and tell me show me one thing that looks grand prix outside of the twin port grill.
 

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The headlights are very similar. Those lights with those particular shapes for the dual-port grille point the previous Grand Prix. And the current Grand Prix facia looks like the Grand Am.
 

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Originally posted by geronimo66@Apr 7 2004, 04:50 PM
Wow you are in such denial.... this is great you kill me.... hahahahah

This is a funny read. Have you ever seen a 64 Grand Prix then have a look at a 65 GTO. Gee they look very similar but are in fact different cars.
If you don't like the current GTO fine. But your suggestions of having retro cues is retro. Go buy a T-Bird or a Beattle if you want retro. The GTO is modern muscle get over it.
 

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this is a 66 Pontiac Grand Prix.



this is a 67 GTO


We see here that the GTO and GP look very very similar in the nose. Vertical headlighst, twin port grill, almost exactly the same. This seems to be the same with other Pontiacs.
here is a 1966 Pontiac Bonnie.

See? Same basice front end. Same vertical headlights, 2 in each stack.
Who needs glasses? Dont talk to me about the GTO when you dont even know what your talking about.

This is a 04 GTO


This is a 04 Grand Prix.


I see ZERO similarity between the 2 outside of the... you guessed it... grill and headlight area. So, I ask you again, please dont run your mouth when you know nothing of what you talk about. Thank you.
 

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Originally posted by geronimo66@Apr 7 2004, 01:21 PM
are you slow.... so your telling me that every Pontiac must look like a grandprix. Get a clue please, what I am saying is that it would have been very easy to use design que's from say a 66 GTO to bring a nostalgic look to the new GTO, NOT a retro redo, but rather a flavor of the past. I have seen concepts that have done this, it worked well. The GTO is confused by many as a grandprix coupe, that is just wrong.
If your eyes can't tell the difference and other people's perception means so much to you, by all means take an opinion poll of the general public until you find a car unique enough that they can all identify it, and then buy it. Maybe you're the right kind of guy to drive a Beetle. Nobody will mistake that for anything else. It even has "retro touches", like the bud vase on the dash.
 
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