Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

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Thread: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

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    Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    Will Lithium for batteries run out before Crude Oil?

    A new research report by William Tahil, director of research for Meridian International Research, called 'The Trouble with Lithium' is spreading over the internet and may be behind Toyota's pull back on Hybrids and Plug-ins.

    Is the Volt and GM's Hybrid range in danger of having a shorter shelf life than we all hoped for? Is there a worldwide shortage of lithium for the batteries which could run out before crude oil?

    You can find a copy of the report by Googling 'The Trouble with Lithium' or download it from here http://www.meridian-int-res.com/Projects/Lithium.htm or here http://blog.maxdunn.com/articles/200...e-with-lithium.


    From www.theinquirer.net

    http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquir...p-boffin-warns

    Quote Originally Posted by www.theinquirer.net
    THE SUPPLY OF lithium, which is a key ingredient in lap-top batteries, could dry up if it is seen as a alternative fuel for cars, a key boffin has warned.

    Lithium batteries are being touted as a way forward for electric cars, but according to William Tahil, director of research for Meridian International Research this could result in the world's lithium supply drying up really fast.

    In his newly released white paper entitled, "The Trouble with Lithium", he points out that the vast majority of world's supply of lithium carbonate, is only found in China, Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia. He estimates total world lithium metal reserves at just 6,200,000 metric tons.

    In chat with EV World, Tahil said that while lithium salts production could double in the next few years, the industry can't produce enough lithium to build the hundreds of millions of large-format batteries needed to power the electric cars and plug-in hybrids of the future.

    He said the motor industry should have another look at sodium nickel chloride and zinc-air, both of which offer comparable or greater energy density than lithium without the attendant safety or resource depletion issues. This is because there is a lot more Zinc in the ground than lithium. Laptops and handhelds will make short shrift of the available Lithium anyhow.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Trouble with Lithium
    Executive Summary.

    Lithium Ion batteries are rapidly becoming the technology of choice for the next generation of Electric Vehicles - Hybrid, Plug In Hybrid and Battery EVs. The automotive industry is committed increasingly to Electrified Vehicles to provide Sustainable Mobility in the next decade. LiIon is the preferred battery technology to power these vehicles.

    To achieve required cuts in oil consumption, a significant percentage of the world automobile fleet of 1 billion vehicles will be electrified in the next decade. Ultimately all production, currently 60 Million vehicles per year, will have to be replaced with highly electrified vehicles – PHEVs and BEVs.

    Analysis of Lithium's geological resource base shows that there are insufficient economically recoverable Lithium resources available to sustain Electrified Vehicle manufacture in the volumes required, based solely on LiIon batteries. Depletion rates would exceed current oil depletion rates and switch dependency from one diminishing resource to another. Concentration of supply would create new geopolitical tensions, not reduce them.

    Reliance on other hypothetical, unproven potential sources of Lithium such as Seawater is not a realistic or practical strategy on which to base a technology revolution in the automotive industry.
    Anyone interested in the furture of electric power and the automobile, be it plug-ins or hybrids will find the report an interesting informative read about the complexities surrounding any major change in an industry as massive as the car industry. What works well for a small number may not even be possible to scale up to 60 million new vehicles a year. There may just not be enough stuff on the planet to make a change on that scale when you deal with rare elements.


    Last edited by MonaroSS; 01-19-2008 at 06:16 AM.

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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    Makes sense. All you're doing is switching from one finite resource to another. I was "thrilled" to see that China and a few scrappy South American countries have the world's supply of lithium. How about we find something that America has internally that would solve this energy independence issue?

    He said the motor industry should have another look at sodium nickel chloride and zinc-air, both of which offer comparable or greater energy density than lithium without the attendant safety or resource depletion issues. This is because there is a lot more Zinc in the ground than lithium. Laptops and handhelds will make short shrift of the available Lithium anyhow.

    I have no idea what sodium nickel chloride and zinc-air are, but I'm going to go look it up........
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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    Quote Originally Posted by CamaroCrazy View Post
    ..... I was "thrilled" to see that China and a few scrappy South American countries have the world's supply of lithium. How about we find something that America has internally that would solve this energy independence issue? ...........
    So much for the $300 Lap-top.... (batteries not included, batteries sold separately $499 each)

    I can see it now, 2020 Presidential Campaign:

    "WE MUST RID OURSELVES OF OUR DEPENDANCE OF FOREIGN LITHIUM"

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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    Here comes Coal baby!


    I cant wait to drive my 2025 Coal powered Camaro!

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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    And 10 years from now:

    GM LAUNCHES PRODUCTION OF WATER FUELED- HYDROGEN POWERED VEHICLES-

    "EXPERTS" WARN THAT EARTH'S WATER SUPPLY IN DANGER OF DEPLETION, HUMANITY DOOMED!




    You will always have the Alarmists panicking about SOMETHING.
    Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you.

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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    I wouldn't read too much into the doom and gloom of the lithium market. There will always be someone who, for whatever reason, wants to scare the world. The people who funded this report probably have a heavy investment in lithium futures, and want to see the price go up a bit on speculative investing.

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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    Quote Originally Posted by jkennedy293 View Post
    I wouldn't read too much into the doom and gloom of the lithium market. There will always be someone who, for whatever reason, wants to scare the world. The people who funded this report probably have a heavy investment in lithium futures, and want to see the price go up a bit on speculative investing.

    And can you tell me the names of the people who you say funded this report and who have lithium futures as their motive?




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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    Quote Originally Posted by M_RABID View Post
    And 10 years from now:

    GM LAUNCHES PRODUCTION OF WATER FUELED- HYDROGEN POWERED VEHICLES-

    "EXPERTS" WARN THAT EARTH'S WATER SUPPLY IN DANGER OF DEPLETION, HUMANITY DOOMED!




    You will always have the Alarmists panicking about SOMETHING.
    That may be true, but you will also always have people who jump on something like Li-Ion batteries or Internet stocks or housing price growth and say that there is nothing to worry about.

    They will, like you, brandish someone warning of "irrational exuberance" and Internet stock overpricing is just an "Alarmists panicking about SOMETHING".

    Or that a person warning that housing prices are too high and forming a bubble that could drag the US economy down and that sub-prime mortgages off the back of that bubble are a moral hazard is just an "Alarmists panicking about SOMETHING".

    Or that a person warning that the massive trade imbalance by the US with China and Asia and the Middle East is putting the control of the value of the US dollar in Foreign Hands is just an "Alarmists panicking about SOMETHING".

    So take no heed of warnings if you will. Or perhaps read and listen to people who say "don't put all your eggs into one basket", as this article does. This article has been circulating now for many months and not one company like Sony or Panasonic or GM or any government agency has refuted it's claims. That in itself I find worrisome.



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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    I think what this article really shows, is that America's and the rest of the world's solution to pollution/oil use is not going to be just one option. It is going to be a combination of all alternative fuel types.
    Last edited by alveress; 01-19-2008 at 12:53 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    Quote Originally Posted by alveress View Post
    I think what this article really shows, is that America's and the rest of the world's solution to pollution/oil use is not going to be just one option. It is going to be a combination of all alternative fuel types.
    I agree 100% with you.

    I think the days of a monolithic approach to transportation energy supply are coming to an end.

    I think you will see ethanol for people who want ICE sports and muscle cars where exhaust sound and power delivery and rowing through a gearbox is fun.

    Plug-in EV for city commuters where smog control is paramount; using Li-Ion batteries for those with long commutes and cheaper batteries for those on short runs.

    Bio-diesel for the farm boys and their pickups. Even compressed air vehicles for city taxis like Mexico City is planning.

    It will be a mixed bag and more like the early years of the car; like Jay Leno talks about with his steam and electric cars from the early 1900's.



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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    This is why once they get Lithium batteries figured out and in use they will continue to look for the next best thing. I think batteries will progress far beyond what Lithium batteries are capable of eventually. Who knows what it might be but we can be sure there is no single solution that will last until the end of time.
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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    I'm waiting for the politico-powered car. It's powered by the BS, hot air, and heaping/steaming turds politicians and their acolytes constantly heap upon us. Once we can have that we're set since you can never shut a politician up nor get them to stop spreading manure about. And it's 100% eco-friendly since these blowhards will spout nonsense regardless.

    Of course, we might have to have elections more regularly as the non-free world gets more industrialized, but hey, they've perfected that in Italy already so we can go learn from the experts.

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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    We need to go back to exposed wooden frames and axles, rock wheels and dinoskin tops. Forget engines, we need to get back to human power. Imagine all the resources saved, zero pollution, no more deadly hi-speed collisions and all the drivers and passengers would be in shape.

    But then, we'd have to harvest lots of trees, mountains and dinosaurs.
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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundan...mical_elements

    Hydrogen is the most abundant element.
    So we are safe

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    Re: Trouble for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles?

    Current leading nominees (5 -10 years from now) for ...

    Axis of Terror LIST#2, (The Sequel)

    China, (Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia.)

    Any Li in the Dead Sea ?

    "Mr. President , I'm talking about a Lithium salt mineshaft gap !"

    MonaroSS , Thats a good find .
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 01-19-2008 at 06:08 PM.
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