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Thread: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    I question your claim, not sure you can prove it 100%, they may have agreed to work within its framework, but that doesn't mean they were in favor of it. Regardless, I'll agree many President have supported and promoted CAFE, but which President's in the past pushed for a 100% improvement in just over a decade!?
    I'll go by the public statements as to whether the occupants of the WH were for or against CAFE. None have ever said anything against CAFE ( I've lived through the entire period as an adult ). So who would have been against it?

    Carter? ... He signed it into law
    Reagan? .. The standards rose every year during his 8 yrs in office
    Bush I? ... Not a word against it and the standards peaked during his 4 yrs
    Clinton? .. A notorious greenie-weenie
    Bush II? .. He demanded that Congress jump the CAFE standards from 27 to 35 (+30%) - and he got his wish
    Obama? .. 35 to 54.5 (+55%)

    Look up the history of CAFE on Wiki...

    The Obama Administration is mandating: technology that doesn't exist, cars we do not want to drive, electric vehicles or some combination of the 3.
    This is simply false. Just because you are not personally aware of what is technically possible doesn't mean that major innovations are not already in development. Remember this wasn't done in a vacuum. Every automaker had to sign off on the agreement. In fact most were present and in full agreement that the new standards could be met in the timeframe required.

    Again I'll direct you to HR 1380 which is ready to be passed by Congress and signed by the President as an example of what's just over the horizon. What if your diesel pickup normally got 35 - 40 mpg every single day? That technology already exists with GM and Cummins at the forefront.

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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    In just the last two years we saw compacts go from 32-34mpg to 40-42mpg, midsize crossovers go from 25mpg to 30-32mpg, and fullsizers go from 25-26mpg to 30-31mpg. I think in a decade we can bump that up. The last two years have all been done with different tires, more aerodynamic (cheap) alterations, and turbos. Imagine if automakers reduced weight?

    CAFE mpgs aren't the same as roadgoing mpgs to begin with.
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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by ponchoman49 View Post
    Quote: will save consumers on average $8,000 per vehicle by 2025, the White House said in a statement.

    I love this one. Sure you will save 8000 bucks in oil over 10 years of vehicle ownership. But you will also pay the piper in a slower small displacement 3 or 4 cylinder vehicle that is smaller than the one you had before and will costs 8000 bucks more than your old car which totally negates that advantage and gives you a car that you didn't really want in the first place. Already I have numerous complaints on the new Focus and Cruze the moment more than two people have to sit in the cramped back seat. It really amazes me how gullible people are today. This is purely another way the government is telling you and me what we WILL drive. V8's, sport utes, large trucks, V6's, sports cars etc will all be literally abolished if this lunacy is allowed to continue. And that is what they and the tree huggers have been after for years. I don't want a freaken 3 cylinder golf cart with an electric motor death trap out on the highways playing smash up derby with 18 wheelers! Once again the real problem is NOT being addressed.
    All of this is false.

    You really do need to do some investigating before getting all worked up over nothing. That middle highlighted sentence is so far off base that I think that you simply sat at the keyboard and let your emotions run amuck without finding out any facts about the subject at all.

    How would you feel if you were to learn that soon your current Tahoe could get upwards of 40+ mpg every day. That's better than a Cruze.

    AS to the potential extra cost....let me ask you a direct question....in the future if you had to pay more for your transportation, i.e. cost of vehicle + cost of fuel, .... to whom would you rather pay the extra money?

    Would you rather pay...
    • GM or Iran?
    • Exxon/Mobil or your local gas utility?
    • Royal Dutch Shell or your local electricity provider

    You are going to pay more for your transportation in the future, there is no question about this because the price of everything in a vehicle is going up, steel, plastic, labor, etc, etc and the price of liquid petro-fuel is going out of sight soon. You choice is to whom you pay your extra money.

    Now if the vehicle makers say that they have the technologies to cut your fuel cost by one-third - or more in some cases - then wouldn't you rather give GM or Ford your money and support jobs and business and innovation here in N America? It's an easy calculation to do if you want to see it.
    Last edited by PhishPhood; 08-01-2011 at 10:19 AM.

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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by PhishPhood View Post
    Carter? ... He signed it into law
    Reagan? .. The standards rose every year during his 8 yrs in office
    Bush I? ... Not a word against it and the standards peaked during his 4 yrs
    Clinton? .. A notorious greenie-weenie
    Bush II? .. He demanded that Congress jump the CAFE standards from 27 to 35 (+30%) - and he got his wish
    Obama? .. 35 to 54.5 (+55%)

    Look up the history of CAFE on Wiki...
    Actually, Ford signed it into law. Nixon was the main push behind CAFE.

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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by prowlerjc View Post
    Actually, Ford signed it into law. Nixon was the main push behind CAFE.
    Good catch..I stand corrected..

    The Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) are regulations in the United States, first enacted by US Congress in 1975,[1] and intended to improve the average fuel economy of cars and light trucks (trucks, vans and sport utility vehicles) sold in the US in the wake of the 1973 Arab Oil Embargo.

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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by PhishPhood View Post
    Good catch..I stand corrected..
    No problem. It is a fairly common mistake.

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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainDan View Post
    No. Not even close.

    Most US oil imports come from OPEC nations (not Canada or Mexico). In fact, those imports are more than the imports from Canada and Mexico combined. You are misled by the individual source country statistic. Yes Canada is our largest single country source (Mexico is in a tie for second with Saudi Arabia). But we get a great deal more from OPEC. It's just that OPEC is made up of twelve individual countries.

    Sources of U.S. Oil Imports
    Each day, the U.S. uses about 21 million barrels of oil-more than any other country in the world. It imports about 58% of it. Here’s where we get the oil.

    Canada 11%
    Mexico 11
    Saudi Arabia 9
    Venezuela 8
    Nigeria 7
    Iraq 4
    25 other countries 8


    Read more: Sources of U.S. Oil Imports — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/science/en...#ixzz1TnCOSrRh


    Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries
    May 2011 Import Highlights: Released July 28, 2011
    Monthly data on the origins of crude oil imports in May 2011 has been released and it shows that three countries exported more than 1,000 thousand barrels per day to the United States (see table below). The top five exporting countries accounted for 67 percent of United States crude oil imports in May while the top ten sources accounted for approximately 87 percent of all U.S. crude oil imports. The top five sources of US crude oil imports for May were Canada (2,006 thousand barrels per day), Saudi Arabia (1,197 thousand barrels per day), Mexico (1,154 thousand barrels per day), Venezuela (895 thousand barrels per day), and Nigeria (808 thousand barrels per day). The rest of the top ten sources, in order, were Colombia (414 thousand barrels per day), Iraq (407 thousand barrels per day), Angola (356 thousand barrels per day), Russia (339 thousand barrels per day), and Algeria (263 thousand barrels per day). Total crude oil imports averaged 8,988 thousand barrels per day in May, which is an increase of 273 thousand barrels per day from April 2011. Canada remained the largest exporter of total petroleum in May, exporting 2,481 thousand barrels per day to the United States, which is a decrease from last month (2,625 thousand barrels per day). The second largest exporter of total petroleum was Saudi Arabia with 1,203 thousand barrels per day.

    Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
    (Thousand Barrels per Day)
    Country May-11 Apr-11 YTD 2011 May-10 YTD 2010

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    CANADA 2,006 2,079 2,114 1,997 1,928
    SAUDI ARABIA 1,197 1,089 1,122 1,093 1,068
    MEXICO 1,154 973 1,108 1,290 1,130
    VENEZUELA 895 902 917 1,011 918
    NIGERIA 808 856 886 1,004 981
    COLOMBIA 414 462 348 295 306
    IRAQ 407 519 403 394 483
    ANGOLA 356 277 308 423 408
    RUSSIA 339 288 228 358 250
    ALGERIA 263 207 253 352 313
    BRAZIL 260 210 211 312 276
    KUWAIT 200 78 142 219 201
    ECUADOR 134 142 166 160 190
    CONGO (BRAZZAVILLE) 59 86 54 89 90
    NORWAY 58 88 54 78 39

    [OPEC nations in BOLD]

    Total Imports of Petroleum (Top 15 Countries)
    (Thousand Barrels per Day)
    Country May-11 Apr-11 YTD 2011 May-10 YTD 2010

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    CANADA 2,481 2,625 2,686 2,527 2,519
    SAUDI ARABIA 1,203 1,107 1,128 1,097 1,075
    MEXICO 1,286 1,077 1,234 1,428 1,260
    VENEZUELA 999 997 1,017 1,109 1,010
    NIGERIA 854 922 937 1,026 1,007
    RUSSIA 677 704 616 719 539
    IRAQ 407 519 403 394 483
    COLOMBIA 433 516 383 315 338
    ALGERIA 400 466 466 518 487
    ANGOLA 356 277 319 448 420
    BRAZIL 282 227 223 320 306
    UNITED KINGDOM 233 187 178 176 286
    VIRGIN ISLANDS 194 179 196 193 252
    NORWAY 101 167 116 119 114
    ECUADOR 134 142 167 160 192

    Note: The data in the tables above exclude oil imports into the U.S. territories.

    ftp://ftp.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/pe...nt/import.html
    Last edited by Neanderthal; 08-01-2011 at 10:54 AM.
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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    OPEC Member Countries:

    Algeria
    Angola
    Ecuador
    Iran
    Iraq
    Kuwait
    Libya
    Nigeria
    Qatar
    Saudi Arabia
    United Arab Emirates
    Venezuela


    http://www.opec.org/opec_web/en/about_us/25.htm
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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me View Post
    I looked up May 2011 oil statistics, and it stated the following:
    May 2011 Import Highlights: Released July 28, 201
    Monthly data on the origins of crude oil imports in May 2011 has been released and it shows that three countries exported more than 1,000 thousand barrels per day to the United States (see table below).
    The top five exporting countries accounted for 67 percent of United States crude oil imports in May while the top ten sources accounted for approximately 87 percent of all U.S. crude oil imports.
    The top five sources of US crude oil imports for May were
    Canada (2,006 thousand barrels per day),
    Saudi Arabia (1,197 thousand barrels per day),
    Mexico (1,154 thousand barrels per day),
    Venezuela (895 thousand barrels per day), and
    Nigeria (808 thousand barrels per day).
    The rest of the top ten sources, in order, were
    Colombia (414 thousand barrels per day),
    Iraq (407 thousand barrels per day),
    Angola (356 thousand barrels per day),
    Russia (339 thousand barrels per day), and
    Algeria (263 thousand barrels per day).
    Total crude oil imports averaged 8,988 thousand barrels per day in May

    You stated that the US imports 12.2 million barrels a day, which is clearly wrong by a factor of 3.2 million barrels a day. It also shows that Canada and Mexico are prinicipal oil producers who export to the US, along with Saudi Arabia and the other 7 countries.
    And.... at least more than half of the countries mentioned may be the source of future conflict.
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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by PhishPhood View Post
    All of this is false.

    You really do need to do some investigating before getting all worked up over nothing. That middle highlighted sentence is so far off base that I think that you simply sat at the keyboard and let your emotions run amuck without finding out any facts about the subject at all.

    How would you feel if you were to learn that soon your current Tahoe could get upwards of 40+ mpg every day. That's better than a Cruze.

    AS to the potential extra cost....let me ask you a direct question....in the future if you had to pay more for your transportation, i.e. cost of vehicle + cost of fuel, .... to whom would you rather pay the extra money?

    Would you rather pay...
    • GM or Iran?
    • Exxon/Mobil or your local gas utility?
    • Royal Dutch Shell or your local electricity provider

    You are going to pay more for your transportation in the future, there is no question about this because the price of everything in a vehicle is going up, steel, plastic, labor, etc, etc and the price of liquid petro-fuel is going out of sight soon. You choice is to whom you pay your extra money.

    Now if the vehicle makers say that they have the technologies to cut your fuel cost by one-third - or more in some cases - then wouldn't you rather give GM or Ford your money and support jobs and business and innovation here in N America? It's an easy calculation to do if you want to see it.
    +

    Goo and drivel. There is a Law of Diminishing Returns at work in every endeavor. The trouble with these inane CAFE figures is they have no serious engineering behind them. Only wishes by earnest religious believers, which doesn't substitute.

    But it will not happens. Sanity returns in November 2012.

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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by staspeterson View Post
    But it will not happens. Sanity returns in November 2012.
    I'm with you, vast new deposits of oil will be discovered under Idaho.. I hope.

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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by staspeterson View Post
    +

    Goo and drivel. There is a Law of Diminishing Returns at work in every endeavor. The trouble with these inane CAFE figures is they have no serious engineering behind them. Only wishes by earnest religious believers, which doesn't substitute.

    But it will not happens. Sanity returns in November 2012.
    Puleeze...

    It doesn't matter who's in office in Jan 2013, these new regulations will still go into effect and the new or current President and the new members of Congress ( GOP, Dem or TP ) will still listen the 'silent experts' who actually create policies like CAFE.

    As I noted above CAFE has been completely exempt from all political influences. It has been completely supported by every President ( since Nixon ) and every Congress ( Dem or GOP ) since it's inception.

    It's a strategic policy implemented by the intelligence and military experts that simply is put into place for the overall benefit of the country in the long run. It's similar to our support for S Arabia. Everyone in DC, and also now in Detroit, is in support.

    But you also are apparently unaware of the new technologies just around the corner that GM and Cummins are putting on the road right now. YOU are just not very up-to-date on the latest innovations. It will be possible for a vehicle the size of the current Tahoe to get upwards of 40 mpg with very little modification.

    Welcome to the 21st Century, son.

    no serious engineering behind them
    I suppose that you think that the representatives of GM, Ford and Toyota all signed on to the new regs despite the fact that staspeterson knows that there is no engineering at any of these companies which will allow them to meet the standards in 2025.

    May I have a bibliography of your published works so that I can present it to GM, Ford and Toyota while at the same time shorting all their stocks....
    Last edited by PhishPhood; 08-03-2011 at 11:27 AM.

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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by PhishPhood View Post
    But you also are apparently unaware of the new technologies just around the corner that GM and Cummins are putting on the road right now. YOU are just not very up-to-date on the latest innovations. It will be possible for a vehicle the size of the current Tahoe to get upwards of 40 mpg with very little modification.
    You have made this assertion, now prove it. Please describe in detail how to produce a Tahoe that averages upwards of 40 mpg, including each technology, its cost, and implementation. Also, to average upwards of 40 mpg, it would need to get more than 30 mpg in the city and over 50 mpg on the highway to average upwards of 40 mpg.
    If it really was so easy, car companies would have already done it.

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    Re: Technologies That Will Get Automakers To 54.5 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me View Post
    You have made this assertion, now prove it. Please describe in detail how to produce a Tahoe that averages upwards of 40 mpg, including each technology, its cost, and implementation. Also, to average upwards of 40 mpg, it would need to get more than 30 mpg in the city and over 50 mpg on the highway to average upwards of 40 mpg.
    If it really was so easy, car companies would have already done it.
    I did just that earlier in the thread. The innovation is literally state-of-the-art that's why no one is using it yet. This innovation was introduced here on GMI only 4 months ago. Do a little research, it's GM that's on the cutting edge here.

    Here I'll help, Google: NatGas+diesel, HR 1380, Westport Innovations, Chesapeake Energy

    In addition there's the difference between the CAFE number and the more commonly-encounted EPA number. If trucks have to meet 54.5 mpg ( CAFE ) then their EPA number would only have to be 35-40 ..... in 2025.
    Last edited by PhishPhood; 08-03-2011 at 11:59 PM.

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