Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

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Thread: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

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    Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    Thought it might be worth trying to have a thread for the compression ignition / diesel topics and the people that are interested in them - but without battery or fuel cell juice spilled all over them from some Prius / VOLT / battery / electrification - 'whatever' spin doctor.

    Anybody who hauls especially long distance knows what I'm talking about when I say there isn't a snow ball's chance in hell that anything in those areas are going to work for what we need.

    So.... perhaps a usable development - certainly one of interest in more ways than one.

    Item #1 ) Harnessing water in Diesel fuel.

    ( Yep - a world upside )

    If you have ever owned and operated one, chances are that from time to time, you may of had the experience where a hydroscopic fuel additive of some sort ( water remover ) worked, and worked well for you.

    Furthermore, while the product was actually being used up ie 'burned' you may have really liked how the engine ran, noticed some extra power, and improvements in measured fuel consumption.

    To be sure, pulling the water in the fuel system through the combustion chamber and 'burning' it is not the only thing typically involved in that scenario but nonetheless it is also typically a component of the over all positive effect.

    ii ) There are interesting side effects when non destructive use of water injection is used pretty much across the ICE spectrum.

    ( Same with regards to the basic combustion of Hydrogen in the simplest possible settings. )

    Improvements in inlet charge density and temperature are typically and correctly considered the main source of action - but once again, its not neccessarily the only thing - at least for some.

    Especially in regards to certain combinations of all the variables involved in combustion engines....

    Anyway, while the above are interesting topics in and of themselves, its really just intended as a short but usable intro for the following -

    This is actually a 'somewhat' 'poorly' written press release and most definitely does not cover the full spectrum of combustion topics involved.

    However, although they also somewhat shoot themselves in the foot ( imo ) in terms of reporting the results, ( over simplified - on purpose ??? ) those results are very interesting in a positive & very practical way nonetheless.


    Cavitation Technologies Introduces HydorFuel, Hydro-Fuel Technology -- Water Saves Fuel

    LOS ANGELES, Jan. 14 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Cavitation Technologies, Inc. (CTI) (OTC Bulletin Board: CVAT; Berlin: WTC) is pleased to announce preliminary results on our new hydro-fuel technology known as HydorFuel.

    CTI has used its proprietary process to mix water on a molecular level with diesel.

    CTI's newest development is able to efficiently blend fuel and water.

    Our newly developed technology of mixing and processing fuel with cavitation and preparation of fine water-in-oil emulsions can be used not only in marine diesel engines, but also in boilers and turbine power generators.

    The apparent result is a more efficient burn and is a cleaner emission as well as lowered operating costs, particularly for marine diesels and turbine power generators.

    Initial results indicate using 10-20% water-in-oil emulsion (diesel) allows the reduction of fuel consumption by up to 12% and reduces the emission of NOx by 40%, and that of sulfur dioxide and hydrogen sulfide by 50%.

    ______________

    < The following is where they kind of mess a bunch of stuff up in a sense - but its all good in a net sense >


    A recent trial at the CTI testing facility confirmed using CTI's ISO certified independent lab Inspectorate showed 17269 BTU/lb of 10% water in #2 Diesel and 16698 BTU/lb using a 15% water blend.

    This is substantially higher by comparison to other alternative fuels such as biodiesel.

    The NOx reduction is also significantly more in hydro-fuel than with biodiesel making this a more preferable environmental solution for fuel additives. < Not necessarily true in a theoretical sense....... and then also this does not deal with the two together - and properly optimized. However.....its a workable observation in a practical sense - that skips over some other stuff - which maybe the best part of all >
    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-81440152.html
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 01-21-2010 at 04:42 PM.
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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    There is already a significant amount of water in diesel fuel. A car I used to have had a diesel fuel/water separator that had to be drained periodically. I am guessing this is a higher water content, used to lower combusion temperatures to reduce nox.

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    We have LPG injection in to diesels here in Australia. Is this done in the US as well?
    I am thinking that water injection would also help prevent carbon build up in the cylinders.

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me View Post
    There is already a significant amount of water in diesel fuel. A car I used to have had a diesel fuel/water separator that had to be drained periodically.
    The problem is that there's not supposed to be water in diesel fuel, and when it does get in there it's not homogenous. Just like oil and water do not mix, the two will separate. I think this is about mixing them in a way that the water will remain suspended.

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    That is very interesting...thanks. I had no idea about any of that.
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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    That was one of the problems with the Olds 350 diesel. They didn't even have a separator on the car; their diesel was one of the reasons people don't like diesels here.

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me View Post
    That was one of the problems with the Olds 350 diesel. They didn't even have a separator on the car; their diesel was one of the reasons people don't like diesels here.
    It's been 25 years, let it go already. The only people who remember Olds diesel engines are on this site and Edmunds.com. Most people buying cars today weren't old enough to know what diesel is when those were being sold.

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    It is part of GM's history of crappy engines - the Vega engine, Olds diesel, V864, HT4100, and most recently (apparently) the Northstar.
    I personally have had 2 engine failures in GM cars I bought, so I am very concerned about what powerplant they would use, if I were to buy one. The best engines they have had in production are the smallblock Chevy V8 and the Buick 3800.

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me View Post
    The best engines they have had in production are the smallblock Chevy V8 and the Buick 3800.
    And the big block Chevy, and the Duramax, and the 3.6L HF, and the Atlas 6-cylinder, and the Ecotec 2.0L turbo, and the 2.4L SIDI Ecotec, and the LS V-8s. . .
    GM does not have a "history of crappy engines".

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by Slideways View Post
    The problem is that there's not supposed to be water in diesel fuel, and when it does get in there it's not homogenous.
    Just like oil and water do not mix, the two will separate. I think this is about mixing them in a way that the water will remain suspended.
    You are correct - and that's part of the 'break thru' - in a sense.

    ( In generic terms, this has been accomplished before - many times over. )

    The action as described here has perhaps four things that matter.

    Two are explicitly described two are implicit - hopefully.

    A (1) 'homogeneous' mix of (2) finely suspended H2O molecules ie located 'next' to fuel molecules ....(3) - and the needed ability to keep them that way - all accompanied with (4) 'attractive' economics.

    This is a markedly different situation that 'macro sized' water fuel contamination.
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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by AMERICA 123 View Post
    You are correct - and that's part of the 'break thru' - in a sense.

    ( In generic terms, this has been accomplished before - many times over. )

    The action as described here has perhaps four things that matter.

    Two are explicitly described two are implicit - hopefully.

    A (1) 'homogeneous' mix of (2) finely suspended H2O molecules ie located 'next' to fuel molecules ....(3) - and the needed ability to keep them that way - all accompanied with (4) 'attractive' economics.

    This is a markedly different situation that 'macro sized' water fuel contamination.
    I didn't know anyone was trying this. I do remember that there was some research done to inject water directly into the cylinder on every few cycles to create a steam cycle, but I don't know when or where I saw that.

    This is cool news, and it makes me optimistic that the IC engine can live on, even though a few vocal individuals in the media, who couldn't change their own oil if their lives depended on it, think that all internal combustion engines haven't changes in 100 years.

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    For anyone interested this the LPG/Diesel company - terribly imaginative name isn't it
    http://www.dieselgasaustralia.com.au...x?ID=Technical

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    HydorFuel, Hydro-Fuel Technology

    Good grief... who came up with that one?

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    I'm kicking myself now for not being able to find this article I saved from Car Craft magazine (IIRC) from about 20 years ago, where they took an early sixties fun of the mill 6 cyl Ford Falcon, with no emissions equipment, and ran it on a water/gas/detergent emulsion. I could have sworn I scanned it into the computer several years ago but I can't for the life of me find it. Anyways, Back then computer control & FI was still fairly new & unknown, and I think the point of the article was to show that you could control emissions meaningfully without all the (then ominous) computer gadgetry. Not only did the car have a drastic reduction in NOX, and actually got better mileage.

    IIRC they got the water/gas mixture to stay emulsified with a small quantity of laundry detergent. I think it was some massive amount of water they used, the mix was something like 70-75% gas, ~0.5% detergent, and the balance was water. I remember marveling about the large percentage of water the car could run on.

    Who knows whether the emulsion would eventually settle out, or how it would behave in different climes though. When its all said and done I think it would be simplest to have a separate water injection system with its own water tank. To avoid the perils of lazy drivers avoiding to fill up the water tank, maybe there could be some way that the gas station fuel nozzle design could be modified to fill both fuel and water tanks simultaniously, which would require no extra effort from the driver. Naturally the water would have to have some additive to keep it from freezing in the winter.

    DI engines can tolerate higher compression than PFI engines because of a similar intake charge cooling effect of spraying the fuel right into the cylinder. However, the window for this is limited with fuel, potentially not so with a separate water injection system--I can imagine the water injection timing to lead fuel injection in the interests of acheiving even higher compression (& therefore efficiency) on pump gas/diesel. I'm envisioning multiple little injections to keep temps in check. Sure would be interesting to research.

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    Re: Interesting Developments for Compression Ignition Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by johnstarnes View Post
    That is very interesting...thanks. I had no idea about any of that.
    Someone here - it might even have been America 123 - mentioned on these forums years ago that water injection is a very old technology. It was used in some World War 2 planes to boost power, like in the H trim of the P-51 Mustang.

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