GM developing diesel hybrids

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Thread: GM developing diesel hybrids

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    News Contributor Premium Member EJD1984's Avatar
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    GM developing diesel hybrids

    GM developing diesel hybrids
    01/06/2010, 11:52 AM
    By Drew Johnson


    Peugeot is currently the only automaker with production plans for a diesel-hybrid powertrain, but that could change is the coming years as General Motors is now working on its own version of the super efficient drivetrain.

    GM is now working on a range of diesel-electric powertrains, with production tentatively slated to begin by the middle of the decade. Engineering of the new powertrains is currently ongoing at GM’s diesel headquarters in Turin.

    GM’s engineering staff is experimenting with a number of diesel-hybrid combinations, ranging from mild hybrid systems to diesel versions of the Voltec system to be used in the Chevrolet Volt and Opel Ampera. Most of GM’s diesel-electric engineering centers on the company’s new 1.6L diesel engine.

    Although costly, the diesel-electric powertrains hold the most promise as hybrids are most efficient in city use while diesel are most adapt to highway cruising. “If you want the best fuel consumption, you have to go with the diesel-electric hybrid,” GM Europe’s advanced technology chief engineer, Maurizio Cisternino, told Autocar.

    GM is hoping to have some version of a diesel hybrid in production within the next 5 years, but that will depend on the cost of the technology. GM is hoping to cap the added premium of a diesel hybrid to about $1,400 over a gas-electric vehicle, but Cisternino admits that pricing structure “does not work at the moment”.

    GM’s diesel hybrid technology is currently being developed for its Opel and Vauxhall brands, but that doesn’t mean it won’t eventually surface in the U.S. However, we suspect any U.S. applications would be several years behind the technology’s European launch.

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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    It's too bad diesel hybrid technology will not be brought to North America by GM within the next 10 to 15 years (if at all.)

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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    How long is GM going to kick around this idea?? I've been waiting for this vehicle for years now. At least since 2005 to 2007!
    Google "Opel diesel hybrid" and see what comes up. Here's a few:

    http://www.autobytel.com/content/sha...cle_id_int/228

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...eils-opel.html

    http://www.hybrid-vehicles.net/gm-op...sel-hybrid.htm

    Just build it and make it GLOBALLY AVAILABLE already!!!

    Geesh!
    "“Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least.” -- Goethe

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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    There was a Astra GTC Diesel Hybrid concept back in 2005, but Detroit stopped it. Bob Lutz said that it didn't make sense to put hybrid systems into less expensive cars that already get good gas mileage. That's it.

    The two-mode, full hybrid architecture can be scaled to fit FWD, RWD and AWD vehicles and adapted for both gasoline and diesel engines. Two electric motors (30-kw/40hp and 40-kw/54hp) interact with the variable drive system automatic transmission for smooth acceleration and fuel savings.

    The hybrid components are integrated into the compact Astra Hybrid design, so that passenger comfort and functionality is not compromised. For instance, the nickel-metal-hydride battery pack is located in the spare tire well. Where the spare tire will eventually reside, however is open to debate.

    According to Hans H. Demant, GM's European engineering vice president and Opel's managing director, "We decided to use a diesel-powered car as a starting point because in the mid-term, we don't see a demand for gasoline hybrids in Europe. Our state-of-the-art CDTI engines already deliver impressive dynamics and low fuel consumption. The Astra concept demonstrates that fuel efficiency and vehicle dynamics can be significantly improved by hybrid technology."

    The Astra Diesel Hybrid is powered by a 92-kw (125-horsepower) 1.7-liter CDTI engine with a maintenance-free particulate filter. Two electric motors, rated at 30 kw and 40 kw, also add oomph delivering extra power as needed to that of the turbo-diesel engine or operating by themselves in less demanding conditions. The electric motors also power the Astra Hybrid when accelerating from a full stop. When idling at a full stop the electric motor will turn off in order to save energy. The electric motors are also used as generators when decelerating or when the brakes are applied. The regenerative braking system, recharges the battery pack so that the vehicle never needs to be plugged in.

    The Astra Diesel Hybrid also incorporates two separate electrical systems within the same vehicle. The drive system uses high-voltage power for most of the driving demands. A separate 12-volt system powers safety and convenience items such as inside lights, HVAC and the audio system.

    The Astra Diesel Hybrid may see the light on day one day in Europe where diesel fuel in more prevalent. The exciting part is that the Astra Diesel Hybrid technology, being fully scalable, serves as a springboard for GM to use in other vehicles such as trucks, SUV's, larger automobiles as well as the compacts.

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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    Quote Originally Posted by Toto View Post
    There was a Astra GTC Diesel Hybrid concept back in 2005, but Detroit stopped it. Bob Lutz said that it didn't make sense to put hybrid systems into less expensive cars that already get good gas mileage. That's it.




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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    I really, really, really wish GM would offer a diesel in ANY car for the NA market.

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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    So the 1 market that could benefit most from the high mileage that diesel gets wont have any of this for 5 years at least?? Thats just stupid, its time for GM to step up and be the leader on this in NA, this is def 1 way that GM can show that they are just not big gas guzzling trucks, that 4.5 V8 diesel they shelved mixed with a hybrid system would give amazing economy in the trucks. A 4.0 V8 hybrid diesel version of it would be great for Cadillac to debut, lots of technology to justify the Cadillac price tag and then bring the system to the other brands gradually.

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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    A diesel "Hybrid" of the hydraulic or mechanical type will bury a battery anything for a large number of users and their use patterns - all for substantially less cost than a diesel / battery "hybrid".

    'Voltec' is not an exception to the rule because as we all know its not a hybrid.

    Still that question is definitely worth looking at - the question would be for 'how many' and by 'how much.'

    To be clear, this is a good thing that GM is looking into - at the very least for Europe and some other.

    However,

    The rub comes - for anything beyond bragging rights and halo concepts..... when you move a vehicle's fuel bill by even as much as a 1/3 reduction.

    This in a nutshell is the whole problem concerning all alternative tech.

    As an imperfect example that's still useful, in terms of the USA on this date, if you cut a 4500 -6,000 $ annual fuel expense by a third, you might realistically get enough people's attention to make it work - if you get everything else right.

    Cut a 1500 /2250 fuel bill by 1/3..... you can get wiped out in the consumer's mind by not only the initial cost increment but also by some other things like insurance etc.

    Although the concept is used in markedly different ways - which highly effects the results ........ many tacitly recognize that for full scale & wide spread adoption you are going to need an initial owner pay back period of something less than three years - for anything on anything in any given market.

    Is that the whole story ???

    Nope, not even close - but it is an important part of the picture.

    ___________

    Notice btw, the 2009 sales and financial results for OEM's that do diesel well - at least somewhere versus those that don't and are up to their arse in electrification only...... 'tellingly' would be to put it mildly.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 01-07-2010 at 01:29 AM.
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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    Wouldn't it be better to simply offer ANY diesel in the US?
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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    Quote Originally Posted by bballr4567 View Post
    I really, really, really wish GM would offer a diesel in ANY car for the NA market.
    You need to be more specific .... or it will be a 4 to 6 liter system ... unless that is what YOU WANT.

    Personally, I'm looking for a small displacement (probably 2.2 liters or less) turbo diesel with dual-clutch transmission ... UNLESS there is an even smaller displacement diesel hybrid ... say 5~7 passenger, 5dr above 50 mpg(US) combined that can tow about 2 tons when needed.

    Keep in mind that some of these small diesels are approaching hp densities of 100 hp/liter, possibly more!

    Tie that with an appropriate hybrid system ... and I might even consider one.

    BTW, one of the Indian companies was working on diesels in the 700 to 1100 cc range a couple of years ago.

    That said, Ford, Volvo, Opel/Vauxhall(GM), and Fiat(Chrysler) already have 42 diesels in Europe that should deliver between 50 and 63 mpg(US) combined with a "light foot"! IF you would like to look for yourself, check for vehicles between 60 and 80 mpg(Imperial) combined.
    http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/sea...lConSearch.asp

    These diesels could reduce fuel consumption about 60% on a vehicle to vehicle basis compared to EPA's 2008 "light passenger vehicle" combined average fuel economy of 21~22 mpg(US).
    Last edited by 44 mpg by 2010; 01-07-2010 at 01:18 AM. Reason: add a thought
    It is important what WE use as our "moral compass" and ...
    the "measuring stick" chosen for judging progress/success as well.


    44 mpg by 2010 ... 2013?

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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    I did say CAR so hopefully GM realizes that I meant a passenger car with a right size engine to accompany the car size.

    Yes, it costs more to put in the fuel but they are by far better than the recent battery hybrid "it saves the enviroment" crap.

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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    Quote Originally Posted by SwampFoxZ71 View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to simply offer ANY diesel in the US?
    If you look at how that's working out for VW, Audi and Mercedes it would appear unequivocally so.

    I believe so far the results are a little more mixed for BMW but still adequate - and more than that for the X5.

    I just recently got familiar with many of them again.

    On the otherhand, if we can, by playin' nice with the battery people actually get one for that then we'll inevitably have one available somehow without the battery as well.

    Not bringing the Duramax 4.5 as originally intended is now turning out to be very likely a legitimate criticism.

    The first of our three that actually offers a 'LD' X2 diesel in something other a HD 1/2 ton on up is going to surprise themselves with a good result - assuming at least mediocre execution.

    Given all that has happened...... and the likely state of 'older programs' that were how shall we say less ambitious from the gitgo....... and really just about everything else including most of our people's godforsaken unwillingness to even contemplate much less attempt a better LD than the best of what MB puts out...... a 2.6 - 2-9L V6 with a modular big brother of some kind......seems both reasonable and desirable for things like the SRX / CTS and the Equinox / Terrain to name but a few I'd personally like to see at least one of.

    Oh, and ah, a good retro-fitter for the VUE and the G8.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 01-07-2010 at 01:48 AM.
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    "The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."
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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    Quote Originally Posted by bballr4567 View Post
    I did say CAR so hopefully GM realizes that I meant a passenger car with a right size engine to accompany the car size.

    Yes, it costs more to put in the fuel but they are by far better than the recent battery hybrid "it saves the enviroment" crap.
    THIS MORNING GAS WAS $2.65/GAL AND DIESEL $2.75/GAL ABOUT A MILE FROM THE HOUSE!

    That looks like a 4% spread on top of about a 10% increase in gasoline since September.

    Any guesses when we will be back above $3 per gallon?
    It is important what WE use as our "moral compass" and ...
    the "measuring stick" chosen for judging progress/success as well.


    44 mpg by 2010 ... 2013?

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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids


    Audi, BMW and VW See Strong US Diesel Sales


    7 January 2010

    Audi, Volkswagen and BMW reported strong sales of diesel models in the US in December and the year.

    *

    By year-end, TDI models accounted for 43% of Audi Q7 and 53% of A3 sales.

    Audi initially expected TDI models to make up 18-20% of the sales mix for the Q7 and A3 lines.

    *

    One-third of customers opted for a diesel BMW X5 model in the US in December, according to BMW NA’s December sales results report.

    The X5 sold 3,513 vehicles in total in December, up 22.3% compared to December 2008.
    *

    Volkswagen’s clean diesel TDI models accounted for more than 20% of the Volkswagen of America total December sales with 4,378 units.

    Combined the Jetta, Jetta SportWagen, Golf and Touareg TDIs sold 41,278 total units in 2009, representing approximately 20% of total sales.
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010...0107.html#more

    Yep, no doubt about it we can all be just soooo grateful that Chrysler, Ford, and GM do not offer a bunch of 3.0L and smaller diesel product in the USA.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 01-07-2010 at 05:12 PM.
    "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression — and they're about to do it again."
    "The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."
    "If America is circling the drain, Goldman Sachs has found a way to be that drain — " Matt Taibbi

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    Re: GM developing diesel hybrids

    20% of sales is HUGE. VW TDI engines arent easy to find in the states either.

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