A European Perspective On Hybrids.

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Thread: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

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    Corvette C7 megeebee's Avatar
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    A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    A Commentator From Automotive News/ Europe. Very Interesting Reading:




    GUIDO REINKING

    Marketing, not logic, drives demand for hybrids

    Guido Reinking

    Automotive News | October 8, 2007 - 12:01 am EST

    Combining a gasoline engine and an electric motor to power a vehicle is the most ineffective and most expensive method of cuttong carbon dioxide emissions.


    If pure logic had been the only determinant, not a single hybrid vehicle would have been on display at the Frankfurt auto show this year — not even from Toyota.

    The reason: Combining a gasoline engine and an electric motor to power a vehicle is the most ineffective and most expensive method of cutting carbon dioxide emissions.

    It costs the buyer of a hybrid vehicle in Europe 1,000 euros (about $1,425) to block the emission of one ton of CO2. But just $710 will achieve the same savings by using an advanced diesel or gasoline direct-injection engine.

    The consumer pays:
    So much for the economic expertise of pro-environment politicians, who are happy to conceal the fact that the consumer will be picking up the tab for the extra expense.

    But it's well-known that rational thought doesn't always shape political resolve.

    It's also clear that for a long time, consumers have been buying vehicles they really don't need, whether a seven-seat van or a high-riding SUV or, worse yet, a combination of both.

    Consumers often demand certain features and never use them. If Porsche had delivered the Cayenne with just rear-wheel drive, chances are that just 1 percent of consumers would have noticed.

    So why not a hybrid drive? It's about as helpful to the environment as a Volkswagen Touareg with heavy-duty four-wheel drive is useful on flat terrain.

    But as long as the customer is ready to spend thousands of dollars on superfluous features, why not?

    In the end, the success of hybrid drive is a success of marketing.



    Buy the kid a bike:
    A few weeks ago, an executive informed me that her son would not let her drive him to school in an Audi Q7 because of the climate debate. In response, she gave up her company car and now drives “a boring station wagon.”

    A “hybrid” emblem on the trunk might have reconciled her son with the Q7, she thought.

    I would have handed him a bicycle.





    Source: www.autonews.com
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    "The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. "

    W.B. Yeats- 1919



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    Corvette C7 megeebee's Avatar
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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    Here in Seattle, I just heard of a county sponsored program that purchased a bunch of Priuses as taxis to use for Airport-Downtown trips. It made me laugh out loud, then made me wretch.

    A Toyota Priuses system does not aid during highway driving in any way. A trip to and from the airport is almost entirely freeway driving.

    All this did was give Toyota more money.
    "The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. "

    W.B. Yeats- 1919



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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    ****, and I joke when I say, "buy a bike".
    1979 Chevy Van
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    "Sometimes you gotta say, 'What the *********'. "What the ********* gives you freedom, freedom creates opportunity, ... opportunity - makes your future." - 'Risky Business' 1983

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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by megeebee
    Here in Seattle, I just heard of a county sponsored program that purchased a bunch of Priuses as taxis to use for Airport-Downtown trips. It made me laugh out loud, then made me wretch.

    A Toyota Priuses system does not aid during highway driving in any way. A trip to and from the airport is almost entirely freeway driving.

    All this did was give Toyota more money.
    This is false. There is no similarly sized vehicle now on the road in NA that can get 46-48 mpg on the highway. To even approach this fuel economy you have to go with a two seater Smart.

    Please, check facts first.

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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhishPhood
    This is false. There is no similarly sized vehicle now on the road in NA that can get 46-48 mpg on the highway. To even approach this fuel economy you have to go with a two seater Smart.

    Please, check facts first.
    My son's 2004 Jetta TDI gets a steady 45 at 70mph. That's pretty close!

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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhishPhood
    This is false. There is no similarly sized vehicle now on the road in NA that can get 46-48 mpg on the highway. To even approach this fuel economy you have to go with a two seater Smart.

    Please, check facts first.
    tell that to all those diesel car owners.

    a diesel engine in the states runs alot more money than a gas-electric hybrid. our pollution controls here are alot stricter (8000 for the duramax and allison combo and the tranny is only bout a 1500 of it).
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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhishPhood
    This is false. There is no similarly sized vehicle now on the road in NA that can get 46-48 mpg on the highway. To even approach this fuel economy you have to go with a two seater Smart.

    Please, check facts first.
    Take out the heavy batteries it would do much better. Give it a diesel it would do better. The Prius is **** plain and simple. Anyone that buys into that is a dope.

    We need either diesels or pneumatic or hydraulic hybrids or diesel. All of those can get better MPG without the upfront cost of a battery hybrid.

    But it depends on why you want a hybrid. Most because its cool and they are stupid. Others because they want to save gas and don't realise a diesel can do better than the Prius, which means they didn't research and are stupid. OR to save the environment which there is no cure as it happens naturally and we only aid warming by 3 percent...sooooo

    marketing wins again.

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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    a diesel with a BAS type system would be ideal

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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by megeebee
    Combining a gasoline engine and an electric motor to power a vehicle is the most ineffective and most expensive method of cutting carbon dioxide emissions.
    What about smog?

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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Thunder
    Take out the heavy batteries it would do much better. Give it a diesel it would do better. The Prius is **** plain and simple. Anyone that buys into that is a dope.

    We need either diesels or pneumatic or hydraulic hybrids or diesel. All of those can get better MPG without the upfront cost of a battery hybrid.

    But it depends on why you want a hybrid. Most because its cool and they are stupid. Others because they want to save gas and don't realise a diesel can do better than the Prius, which means they didn't research and are stupid. OR to save the environment which there is no cure as it happens naturally and we only aid warming by 3 percent...sooooo

    marketing wins again.
    Again this is not correct. The engine in the Prius is a 1.5L tuned to the Atkinson cycle. As such it couldn't get a go kart moving. It's because of the addition of the batteries and e-motor that the Prius does so well on the highway.

    The 1.5L in the Prius is the same engine as in the Yaris, a much much smaller vehicle, except that the Yaris is tuned to the Otto cycle. Because of it being tuned to the Otto cycle it only gets about 38 mpg on the highway - with no batteries or motors. So the Prius, which gets 46-48 mpg on the highway, has more weight, more room, more power and more carrying capability but it gets 25% better fuel economy than the much smaller Yaris with the same engine. Go figure.

    Now as to what's in the future this is very interesting. GM and Ford and Toyota have all stated that for NA light vehicle segments the diesel is too expensive and will not deliver the fuel economy of the hybrids. Honda and VW have gone in the opposite direction....mainly because they have no competing technologies. They have to make diesel work. At some time in the next 5-10 years diesels or diesel hybrids may be developed which will offer a double benefit. But who wants to wait 5-10 more years when there's sales and savings to be made today?

    You obviously have not done much real research on the hybrids other than to discuss them over the water cooler or coffee truck. To pooh-pooh away the benefits as marketing hype is to ignore the facts. The facts are all that matter.


    Just to be balanced we have to wait for the new Jetta diesel to arrive here in the Spring. It's exactly the same size as the Prius and it's directed to the same buyer, the greenie techno-phile. The new technology that VW is using will be 50-state compliant which the current technology is not. The questions to be answered are 'What price premium for the clean diesel?' and 'What does the emissions control do to the fuel economy?'

    According to Lutz it's too expensive and it reduces the fuel economy below that of the hybrids. We'll have to see.

    Then there's the whole education process. Unfortunately VW is not the one to do the educating, their rep is not the best. Now Honda has all kinds of brownie points with Mrs American car buyer and good press relations as well. They do have a chance to educate the NA buying public.

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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    I believe Honda has at least as good hybrid technology as Toyota. They opted out of the game for some vehicles due to inability to achieve significant results, by their own admission and by real-life proofs (check out the Accord Hybrid).

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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    For some reason Hybrids don't sell well in my area.(Southern Quebec) Could it be that we are too savvy to be conned into buying such an overpriced technology?
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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    the european perspective...use sub-2L engines in lightweight cars, not loaded down with 'safety' features because of almost no driver training. most opt for manual transmissions. they'd rather have a turbo 2.0 than a 3.6 v6.

    my girlfriend's 1.9L jetta tdi regularly gets 45-54 usmpg. the opel corsa has a 1.3l diesel and gets 70+ mpg. and it still has respectable acceleration because of all the torque.

    americans like power. they use efficiency to make power, not economy.

    basically, the prius uses a 76 hp engine to get good highway economy, and 600+ lb of battery and motor to give it some quickness. why not a 150 hp gdi turbo 1.5L micro hybrid? it'd weigh 2300 lb (same as the yaris), be quicker, less expensive, get 40+ mpg...oh yeah, it's not as marketable.

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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by megeebee
    Here in Seattle, I just heard of a county sponsored program that purchased a bunch of Priuses as taxis to use for Airport-Downtown trips. It made me laugh out loud, then made me wretch.

    A Toyota Priuses system does not aid during highway driving in any way. A trip to and from the airport is almost entirely freeway driving.

    All this did was give Toyota more money.
    Absolutely false. Ever hear of traffic? Or going down a hill? Or the taxi idling waiting for a fare?

    A Prius gets 45 highway under the new EPA numbers (51 under the old ones). A Ford Crown Vic (typical taxi) gets 23 under the new numbers (25 under the old ones). So, they probably use half as much gasoline, give or take.

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    Re: A European Perspective On Hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bravada
    I believe Honda has at least as good hybrid technology as Toyota. They opted out of the game for some vehicles due to inability to achieve significant results, by their own admission and by real-life proofs (check out the Accord Hybrid).
    Nope. Honda's system is inferior to Toyota's. Prior to the current generation of Civic Hybrid, the electric motor couldn't even power the car by itself. The mileage they are getting is less, too (the larger Prius gets better mileage than the Civic Hybrid).

    Now, the Accord Hybrid failed because it was a "muscle hybrid". That is, it had the gas mileage of a 4 cylinder but the power of a V8 (using a V6 gas engine plus an electric engine). But people who care about mileage and the enviroment usually are completely different people than those who care about power, so nobody bought it.

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