Ethanol vs. food debate growing

  1. Welcome to GM Inside News Forum General discussion forum for GM

    Welcome to GM Inside News Forum - a website dedicated to all things GM.

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, Join GM Inside News Forum today!
     
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 21

Thread: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

  1. #1
    7.0 Liter LS7 V8
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL and Upstate NY
    Posts
    4,691
    Thanks
    138
    Thanked 440 Times in 227 Posts
    My Ride
    2017 Kia Soul Turbo/ 2018 CX-5

    Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Before milk prices started spiraling, before gas prices passed $3.50 and before food riots broke out in several countries, ethanol was the darling of energy alternatives. It gave jobs to rural communities and offered an alternative to foreign oil.

    Now, ethanol is a source of bitter controversy, as rising consumer prices have led to new questions about whether corn can serve as both food and fuel without dramatically upsetting the foundations of America's economy.

    President Bush sympathized with the families who exhaust their paychecks on groceries and gasoline, but he remains committed to the possibilities for ethanol.

    A recent analysis estimated that government subsidies for ethanol reached as high as $8.4 billion last year, a sum showing that all stages of ethanol production and consumption depended on some form of public support rather than the free market

    Full article here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...,0,10730.story
    Last edited by mjd1001; 05-01-2008 at 08:07 AM.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    K-1
    K-1 is offline
    6.2 Liter LS3 V8 K-1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Posts
    3,730
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 14 Times in 6 Posts
    My Ride
    2012 Traverse Black Granite

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Newsflash - corn isn't the only, nor is it the best, way to make ethanol.

    Fear-mongering at its finest.

  4. #3
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one) johnstarnes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    13,337
    Thanks
    5,697
    Thanked 848 Times in 469 Posts

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Thanks for that....Washington Post has a good one about how diverting feed corn from livestock to ethanol production a primary cause of the spike in food prices, and how acreage formerly dedicated to growing corn and other crops as livestock food and human food now being used to grow crops for biofuels adds to the effect. So I continue to greatly prefer cellulosic ethanol from plant waste, or oil from algae, vs. from cultivated crops that need vast amounts of water and fertilizers that are creating huge "dead zones" in the Gulf once they enter via the Mississippi and other rivers. Food-into-fuel in a hungry world strapped for resources just does not make sense to me, just as oil palm and sugar cane plantations for fuel are wreaking horrific damage to what little remains of the planet's rain forests.
    "The only normal people are the ones you don't know well". unknown


    Hidden Content

    Hidden Content

    Hidden Content

  5. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    7.0 Liter LS7 V8
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL and Upstate NY
    Posts
    4,691
    Thanks
    138
    Thanked 440 Times in 227 Posts
    My Ride
    2017 Kia Soul Turbo/ 2018 CX-5

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Quote Originally Posted by K-1 View Post
    Newsflash - corn isn't the only, nor is it the best, way to make ethanol.

    Fear-mongering at its finest.
    Not fear mongering at all...unless you choose to look at it this way...and the fact that you said corn isn't the only or the best way to make ethanol illustrates just that.
    The reason I posted the article is the point it is making....Why are we devoting SO much time, energy, money, etc....especially the huge governmental subsidies....on corn ethanol. The 'over investment' is not only causing potential problems in food prices/supplies....but as you stated yourself, it's good money thrown at what is not the 'best solution'.

    The article is not going after ethanol..but rather the united states HUGE investment in corn based ethanol. I don't see how you think that is fear mongering...when if you read between the lines...it is actually supporting your very point.

  7. #5
    K-1
    K-1 is offline
    6.2 Liter LS3 V8 K-1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Posts
    3,730
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 14 Times in 6 Posts
    My Ride
    2012 Traverse Black Granite

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Quote Originally Posted by mjd1001 View Post
    Not fear mongering at all...unless you choose to look at it this way...and the fact that you said corn isn't the only or the best way to make ethanol illustrates just that.
    The reason I posted the article is the point it is making....Why are we devoting SO much time, energy, money, etc....especially the huge governmental subsidies....on corn ethanol. The 'over investment' is not only causing potential problems in food prices/supplies....but as you stated yourself, it's good money thrown at what is not the 'best solution'.

    The article is not going after ethanol..but rather the united states HUGE investment in corn based ethanol. I don't see how you think that is fear mongering...when if you read between the lines...it is actually supporting your very point.
    This "huge" investment is nothing new. It's been going on for years. What is new is $120 barrels of oil. That is your source of increased food prices.

  8. #6
    K-1
    K-1 is offline
    6.2 Liter LS3 V8 K-1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Posts
    3,730
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 14 Times in 6 Posts
    My Ride
    2012 Traverse Black Granite

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnstarnes View Post
    Thanks for that....Washington Post has a good one about how diverting feed corn from livestock to ethanol production a primary cause of the spike in food prices, and how acreage formerly dedicated to growing corn and other crops as livestock food and human food now being used to grow crops for biofuels adds to the effect. So I continue to greatly prefer cellulosic ethanol from plant waste, or oil from algae, vs. from cultivated crops that need vast amounts of water and fertilizers that are creating huge "dead zones" in the Gulf once they enter via the Mississippi and other rivers. Food-into-fuel in a hungry world strapped for resources just does not make sense to me, just as oil palm and sugar cane plantations for fuel are wreaking horrific damage to what little remains of the planet's rain forests.
    Corn for ethanol isn't just thrown away after it's used. What remains after the starches are removed is turned into cattle feed. So how, again, is corn being diverted from livestock?

  9. #7
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one) johnstarnes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    13,337
    Thanks
    5,697
    Thanked 848 Times in 469 Posts

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Quote Originally Posted by K-1 View Post
    Corn for ethanol isn't just thrown away after it's used. What remains after the starches are removed is turned into cattle feed. So how, again, is corn being diverted from livestock?
    A corn kernel is almost completely starch, with some cellulose,oil, and a trace of corn gluten protein that is used as cattle feed and a pre-emergent natural herbicide. I would read the Washington Post article for the details as I have not retained them all, just the basic points covered on how food into fuel is diverting crops and acreage, especially the latter. I thought it had a pretty balanced overview. I don't claim to understand it all but I do enjoy trying to stay informed about it since my personal life is based intimately on agriculture.
    "The only normal people are the ones you don't know well". unknown


    Hidden Content

    Hidden Content

    Hidden Content

  10. #8
    K-1
    K-1 is offline
    6.2 Liter LS3 V8 K-1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Posts
    3,730
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 14 Times in 6 Posts
    My Ride
    2012 Traverse Black Granite

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnstarnes View Post
    A corn kernel is almost completely starch, with some cellulose,oil, and a trace of corn gluten protein that is used as cattle feed and a pre-emergent natural herbicide.
    So, given that, I'll ask again, how is corn being diverted from livestock? If anything, there's more ethanol left-overs for livestock to consume.

  11. #9
    6.2 Liter LS3 V8 Premium Member WishIhadatruck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    3,038
    Thanks
    294
    Thanked 141 Times in 94 Posts
    My Ride
    2014 Cruze Eco MT

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Everything seems to be costing more. Is rice getting more expensive because of Ethanol? Or is everything getting more expensive because of fuel costs and other factors? Regardless I think producing Ethanol from other sources rather than corn is a good idea. I'm glad to see those other technologies starting to come online.
    Current:
    '96 Buick Roadmaster Wagon
    '14 Cruze Eco Manual
    '03 2500 8.1L Suburban
    Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content

  12. #10
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one) johnstarnes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    13,337
    Thanks
    5,697
    Thanked 848 Times in 469 Posts

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Quote Originally Posted by K-1 View Post
    So, given that, I'll ask again, how is corn being diverted from livestock? If anything, there's more ethanol left-overs for livestock to consume.
    As I said, the article mentions how a great deal of acreage formerly devoted to feed production now produces various crops for fuels, not just corn and the means by which it is processed.
    "The only normal people are the ones you don't know well". unknown


    Hidden Content

    Hidden Content

    Hidden Content

  13. #11
    7.0 Liter LS7 V8
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL and Upstate NY
    Posts
    4,691
    Thanks
    138
    Thanked 440 Times in 227 Posts
    My Ride
    2017 Kia Soul Turbo/ 2018 CX-5

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Quote Originally Posted by K-1 View Post
    So, given that, I'll ask again, how is corn being diverted from livestock? If anything, there's more ethanol left-overs for livestock to consume.
    It isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Yes, some is converted for livestock...but what is converted for livestock is much less than would be there for livestock if it wasn't used for Ethanol. Also, the ethanol producing/refining facilities are not right next to where the livestock are...there are transport costs, logistical issues..etc that are greater than if it were not used for ethanol. Also, the rise in fuel prices is not only because of livestock feed...it is also for corn that can be used for human consumption..or if not for human consumption directly...to be 'refined' for other food products for human consumption. Finally, I don't think we are saying you don't have a valid point...just that you can't ignore that Ethanol is a valuable part of our energy issues/solutions going forward...but all we are doing is pointing out some issues that show it is not the best solution....or a 'cure all' solution....your responses to our points almost make me think you are an ethanol lobbyist. I accept your points that Ethanol is a wonderful thing...it just seems that you don't want to accept our points (and the point of the article, as evidence by your response saying it is 'fear mongering at it's finest) that corn based ethanol can be very problematic for many reaons at the level we are producing it.

  14. #12
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    8,848
    Thanks
    222
    Thanked 14 Times in 5 Posts

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Quote Originally Posted by mjd1001 View Post
    ...The reason I posted the article is the point it is making....Why are we devoting SO much time, energy, money, etc....especially the huge governmental subsidies....on corn ethanol. The 'over investment' is not only causing potential problems in food prices/supplies....but as you stated yourself, it's good money thrown at what is not the 'best solution'...
    This is generally the point that I took from your selected article, mjd1001, and the above post nicely reinforces that.

    Some people here are crying for the government to intervene in energy, which on some level it should. But it's interesting that, once again, we have a Federal government that accentuates a problem, creates other problems, and finds legislators pandering to special interests rather than developing a viable, long-term energy policy that encourages industry to research and market the most viable commercial replacement of oil-if that's even a possibility.

    "Eggs went up 25%, Joe American? Well, I've got a solution for you. You're going to pay more taxes to cover the lost tax revenue from giving industrial behemoth ADM a fat tax break so they can eventually lower your energy costs. While we're at it, good ole Rex Tillerman in Irving, TX is gonna be getting the same help, too, as ExxonMobil only made $10.9 billion last quarter - the second biggest U.S. quarterly corporate profit ever. Now, get that checkbook out, and start a-writing. Decreased fuel costs are just moments away. Think of the money you're gonna save."

  15. #13
    3.0 Liter SIDI V6
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Huber Heights, Ohio
    Posts
    734
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    Isn't the tax subsidies going to the Oil companies to mix the Ethanol with Gas, And not going to the people actually making Ethanol? That is what they were talking about on Autoline Detroit earlier in the year.

    Cost of Fuel way up
    Cost of Fertilizer way up
    =
    Food prices are up


    I also seen somewhere that America make 40% of the worlds corn, But only 4% of corn we produce goes towards Ethanol.

    Our Goverment still pays farmers not to grow stuff!!! That needs to stop.

  16. #14

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    gas 3.68 a gallon
    hamburger 4.56 a pound
    water 1.15 a 16oz
    canned

  17. #15

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    2,732
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Ethanol vs. food debate growing

    It's interesting that this debate is even happening. I was watching CNBC and they were basically saying increasing prices is a result of the price of oil. And this is what always happens when oil prices spike.

    So not only are oil companies taking the focus off of them when they are the real culprits, but at the same time they are also successfully getting people to hate our best chance at getting off of oil. I'm not a big anti corporate America type person.... but damn. These people suck.

  18. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.1.2