Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

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Thread: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

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    Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    Click on the link below for more details and read the entire test.

    Save gas. Buy a Turbodiesel.

    VOLKSWAGEN JETTA 1.9 TDI


    -7.0 gallons of B20 biodiesel at $2.749
    -49.9 mpg vs. EPA highway rating of 42 mpg


    Our fuel station was offering up B20 biodiesel, 20 percent veggie oil, which means that from an environmentalist’s perspective the German diesel didn’t just beat the Japanese hybrids, it trounced them. Not only that, it had more than half of its 14.5-gallon tank left at the end—it could have made the same trip again without refueling! Our example was pretty much a stripper, absent even the usual VW trip computer, so we had no instant feedback loop on our performance. Maybe if we’d had that, we could have nudged the economy from 49.9 mpg into the 50-mpg range.

    As it was, we just drove gently, stayed with the caravan and employed the manual mode on the six-speed automatic transmission when it seemed useful. Spoiled by the Vette, perhaps, we sometimes screwed that up because first gear in the Jetta is so low that pulling away from a light runs you up beyond 3000 rpm rapidly, turning fuel into roar with not much accelerative reward. Most of us ended up slotting it into “D” and leaving it there.

    At about 11 seconds to 60 mph, the Jetta’s published road-test numbers are not as good as the Prius’ (around 10 seconds, thanks to massive electric motor torque at 0 rpm), but at highway speeds its 177 lb-ft at 1800 rpm and 100 hp at 4000 rpm feel stronger than the Toyota and smoother than the Honda. The diesel spins harder than the Vette at 80 mph, running at 2500 rpm or so, but still it is a long-legged German car with autobahn-able credentials.

    For comfort, quiet and highway handling, our drivers found the TDI had significant advantages over every other car in the test. It would have been our choice, in other words, for an easy daytrip on the interstates, regardless of fuel economy. And we topped the hybrids by driving with just a little attention to fuel economy, not making it an obsession. Maybe this German family sedan was inspired by our mission—we understand VWs make a lot of beer runs in their homeland.
    TOYOTA PRIUS


    -8.3 gallons of regular gas at $2.599
    -42 mpg vs. EPA highway rating of 51 mpg


    Well, it didn’t make its 51-mpg EPA highway estimated, but 42 mpg on a long road trip would please most American drivers. Part of the shortfall was due to the pace we maintained. At a more hybrid-friendly 55 to 65 mph, the dazzling dashboard display showed numbers closer to 50 mpg, but it was also telling us we were averaging 44 to 45 mpg when our tank reading said otherwise. That instant feedback loop, monitoring economy in short increments of time and distance—not to mention letting the driver see exactly where the energy is going to and coming from—is a big part of why Prius drivers are so prone to telling the rest of us, “You have to drive it differently.” We found that isn’t quite true; the Prius responds to the same economy-minded driving techniques experts have been advising for 30 years or more. Steady throttle openings, gentle accelerations, concentrate on maintaining momentum and avoiding abrupt starts and stops, and it rewards you. The difference in the Prius is it offers up immediate gratification of the video-game variety, right there on the dashboard, no waiting to fill the tank and do the math yourself.

    However you measure it, the second-generation Prius is much better suited to long road trips than was its forebear. It rides better, has more gumption to carry you over grades without fuel-sucking downshifts or a floored gas pedal, and even its braking performance (influenced by the regeneration feature, which varies according to the state of battery charge) is more even and predictable. It did really well. It just wasn’t the mileage champion.
    HONDA ACCORD V6 HYBRID


    -10.3 gallons of regular gas at $2.599
    -33.9 mpg vs. EPA highway rating of 34 mpg


    With 255 hp on tap, there’s plenty of mojo in Honda’s performance-oriented hybrid, and you pay less of a penalty than you do in the Vette if you choose to use what it has. This mix of both economy and performance is what landed the Honda dead-center in our fuel-sippin’ exercise at 33.9 mpg. The Honda had no trouble keeping up on the highway, though locking it into top gear wasn’t as easy as with some cars. Instead, the software wanted us to give the car control.

    On the interstates that made up about 300 miles of our journey, the Honda was the one car that clearly rewarded use of cruise control—a driver on his own could occasionally light the “eco” indicator on the dashboard that tells you the V6 is running on half its cylinders (just like the Jeep’s MDS). Use cruise control, which hands over the throttle and transmission management tasks to the ECU, and that “eco” indicator lit up more often and stayed lit longer.

    It also tended to smooth out the ride experience—most of our drivers complained there were abrupt changes among the various modes of hybrid operation and that once you were up to cruising speed the Honda felt heavy and clunky. There was also plenty of road noise, attributable, as with the Prius, to the hard, fuel-economy-oriented tires.
    From Autoweek:

    - Although we had our qualms before the storm, we think our little road trip shows the technologies are out there to promise massive gains in fuel efficiency in short order, should circumstances warrant it. Imagine a Prius-like hybrid that ran on biodiesel instead of gasoline. We may not be there yet, and adapting diesels to use the cylinder-cutoff technology found in the Jeep and Honda might be a tough task, but look how far we’ve come already.
    Last edited by Kowalski; 04-24-2006 at 03:19 PM.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    They did a comparison text a few weeks ago and the diesel car trashed both the Civic IMA and the Prius in fuel consumption.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    GM should put a new clean Technology turbo diesel in the Aveo, Cobalt, HHR, Colorado/Canyon as an option and perhaps even in Malibu/Maxx and G6 and really kick some Toyota/Honda butt in mileage!!! I'd certainly buy one.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid


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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    Problem is getting consumers to see that. They still think the Hybrids are great!

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    The only reason that hybrids are so popular here is because we have little in terms of diesels. Small cars get crazy high mileage across the pond. As for whether GM can grab an advantage, I doubt it. Everyone has diesels in Europe, so everyone can bring them over like GM can.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    We'll just have to see how many mfg's can meet the strict new diesel emission standards coming to the USA. I'm all for biodiesel and E85 for reducing dependance on foreign petroleum. For the vast majority of people, hybrids don't justify the much higher sticker price. Of course much of the public doesn't really understand that and is uneducated about hybrids.
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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikkoo
    We'll just have to see how many mfg's can meet the strict new diesel emission standards coming to the USA. I'm all for biodiesel and E85 for reducing dependance on foreign petroleum. For the vast majority of people, hybrids don't justify the much higher sticker price. Of course much of the public doesn't really understand that and is uneducated about hybrids.
    It depends on your needs. If you are in stop&go traffic most of the time a hybrid will best suit you. If you are on a highway most of the time and not incumbered in stop&go traffic, a diesel is best for you.

    Another thing to consider: Hybrids have only had 10 years or so of development. Diesels have been in development since 1893, over 100 years! Knowing that it seems to me hybrid technology has a lot of legs left in it in terms of improving. Its very likely the next generation will match diesel numbers.

    I do like the prospect of bio-fuels. But its a waste to engage in the diesel versus hybrid mindset since the two will eventually combine.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Whirling_Dervish
    I do like the prospect of bio-fuels. But its a waste to engage in the diesel versus hybrid mindset since the two will eventually combine.
    How is it a waste? We're living in the here-and-now, not in the what's-to-come. Until hybrid diesels hit the mainstream, current buyers interested in conserving fuel do have to engage in a diesel vs. hybrid debate.

    Since there are such major differences between the two, real world questions do get raised: which has higher maintenance costs? What do I do with the batteries when they start to wear out? Can I get diesel fuel at the gas stations on my usual routes? Do I care more about emissions or fuel economy? Which will make the most financial sense? Is the resale value better with a diesel powerplant or a hybrid gas-electric power plant? If I'm in an accident, is the hybrid system a risk to first responders? Isn't diesel safer because of its higher combustible temperature? I heard diesel emissions are higher in carcinogens than gasoline emissions, should I be concerned? Is diesel fuel cheaper in my area than gasoline?

    So you see, the debate is valid. And even if/when they do come out with hybrid diesels, the benefits over regular diesels will still have to be weighed just as in the above scenario.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    How about a diesel hybrid. I used to work at a company that made metro buses. We had a run of DE buses (diesel electric). I believe they were getting almost ten miles to the gallon instead of three. Of course this was stop and go city traffic which suits hybrids best.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    Thanks so much for posting that! Excellent lunchtime read!

    Hysterical that a Corvette is nearly as frugal as the Accord Hybrid! LMAO.

    The Jetta TDI would definitely get my $ vote. It's a real car with driving dynamics.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Buick61
    How is it a waste? We're living in the here-and-now, not in the what's-to-come. Until hybrid diesels hit the mainstream, current buyers interested in conserving fuel do have to engage in a diesel vs. hybrid debate.

    Since there are such major differences between the two, real world questions do get raised: which has higher maintenance costs? What do I do with the batteries when they start to wear out? Can I get diesel fuel at the gas stations on my usual routes? Do I care more about emissions or fuel economy? Which will make the most financial sense? Is the resale value better with a diesel powerplant or a hybrid gas-electric power plant? If I'm in an accident, is the hybrid system a risk to first responders? Isn't diesel safer because of its higher combustible temperature? I heard diesel emissions are higher in carcinogens than gasoline emissions, should I be concerned? Is diesel fuel cheaper in my area than gasoline?

    So you see, the debate is valid. And even if/when they do come out with hybrid diesels, the benefits over regular diesels will still have to be weighed just as in the above scenario.
    Its a waste to treat this as a this versus that argument because they are on the path to convergence. Its also waste when no consideration is given to how much development has gone into each.

    One has had over 100 years of development and the other only 10 years. So how great of a leap is it that the oldest tech slightly leads in mileage?

    Now to answer your questions:
    1. Maintenance is pretty much at parity. Both are very durable and run well past 100K miles.
    2. Get new ones. Though the originals run well past 100K miles and are covered as such.
    3. Yes and no. Depends.
    4. Do you care? I don't know. But I care.
    5. Financial sense? It depends. What are your driving habits? Your environment? Is a diesel car legal in your state?
    6. Resale is better with hybrids at the moment. Used Priuses are selling for close to new prices.
    7. Any car is a risk to responders. On hybrids they just pull out that orange wire and its fine.
    8. If you are referring to combustion from fumes and such, diesel is safer than gasoline. So in that regard, ANY gasoline using car is more dangerous.
    9. There is a strong belief that diesel is a cancer causing agent. But in this day and age where most things seemingly give you cancer, who knows for sure? There are studies supporting either position. The Europeans don't seem afraid. Then again--they've been wrong before.
    10. Diesel prices in many parts of the country are as high or higher than gasoline.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    Not surprising.

    I have been saying, long before this, that VW has the diesel engines 'down pat' and have great strides with those engines. Definitely not like the old days. Also, it was a big disappointment when the standards in the USA changed and VW had to stop selling the Diesel Touareg, the V10 has more power than the V8 and probably better gas mileage.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Whirling_Dervish
    One has had over 100 years of development and the other only 10 years. So how great of a leap is it that the oldest tech slightly leads in mileage?
    I don't think that's a valid argument. First off, internal combustion/electric hybrids have been around for over 100 years too (think submarines), and their efficiency depends on two technologies which have been around for even longer than that: the internal combustion engine and batteries.

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    Re: Volkswagen TDI is better than Honda and Toyota Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by baloo
    I don't think that's a valid argument. First off, internal combustion/electric hybrids have been around for over 100 years too (think submarines), and their efficiency depends on two technologies which have been around for even longer than that: the internal combustion engine and batteries.

    No. Internal combustion is that old. However marrying that to electric motors is only 10 years old. Note the large strides in the tech are having to do with the electronics/battery side.

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