UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

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Thread: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

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    UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    French article from LeBlogAuto. https://www.leblogauto.com/2020/06/u...fraudeurs.html

    And here the approximate Google translation. https://translate.google.com/transla...fraudeurs.html

    Another chapter in the aftermath of the "Ghosngate".

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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    I guess they thought they could get away with following VW's lead in this debacle. SMH. What next?

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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    When I first saw the headline my mind jumped to Nissan/Renault stealing VW's cheating emissions software.

    Be funny if they copied VW's software and didn't realize VW's software cheated the system! Could Nissan/Renault sue VW for damages from the defective software they stole? Could VW sue Nissan/Renault for theft of their proprietary cheating software?

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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    When I first saw the headline my mind jumped to Nissan/Renault stealing VW's cheating emissions software.

    Be funny if they copied VW's software and didn't realize VW's software cheated the system! Could Nissan/Renault sue VW for damages from the defective software they stole? Could VW sue Nissan/Renault for theft of their proprietary cheating software?
    That opens up an awful lot of rather strange "what if scenarios" lol

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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    When I first saw the headline my mind jumped to Nissan/Renault stealing VW's cheating emissions software.

    Be funny if they copied VW's software and didn't realize VW's software cheated the system! Could Nissan/Renault sue VW for damages from the defective software they stole? Could VW sue Nissan/Renault for theft of their proprietary cheating software?
    Yes.
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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    I believe the basic rule is that you cannot recover damages for benefits derived from illegal activities. Its like saying, well you owe me the money you stole from me after I stole it holding up the local 7-11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    When I first saw the headline my mind jumped to Nissan/Renault stealing VW's cheating emissions software.

    Be funny if they copied VW's software and didn't realize VW's software cheated the system! Could Nissan/Renault sue VW for damages from the defective software they stole? [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG] Could VW sue Nissan/Renault for theft of their proprietary cheating software?
    The original software was developed by Bosch and was never intended for use in production vehicles.
    VW may have been the big scalp caught cheating with diesel emissions but a lot of other manufacturers
    we're gaming the tests on diesels and gasoline by using certain relaxations with temperature cut outs
    on emission equipment but not seeking approval to do so before submitting for final approval. Many
    also gamed fuel economy testing by over inflating tires to get better roll down resistance figures
    for dyno load calculations. Of course an Econetic diesel Focus could boast UK 89 mpg but no one
    could get close to that in the real world. Europe was one big BS show until people started checking.
    Last edited by jpd80; 06-30-2020 at 03:57 AM.

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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    Quote Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
    The original software was developed by Bosch and was never intended for use in production vehicles.
    VW may have been the big scalp caught cheating with diesel emissions but a lot of other manufacturers
    we're gaming the tests on diesels and gasoline by using certain relaxations with temperature cut outs
    on emission equipment but not seeking approval to do so before submitting for final approval. Many
    also gamed fuel economy testing by over inflating tires to get better roll down resistance figures
    for dyno load calculations. Of course an Econetic diesel Focus could boast UK 89 mpg but no one
    could get close to that in the real world. Europe was one big BS show until people started checking.
    That's exactly how it was - I can't think of one brand selling diesels in Europe that was above reproach, including Opel/Vauxhall while owned by GM - fortunately for most of them, VW Group were taken to task in the USA where the law is stronger and this deflected the European scandal away from the other car makers, some of whom quietly fixed their engines rather than deny wrongdoing.

    In Europe, this scandal also highlighted the unachievable NEDC test regime which produced figures which could never be replicated in real life - this in itself was a scandal but the authorities got away with introducing WLTP and let VW Group take the blame.

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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    Quote Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
    The original software was developed by Bosch and was never intended for use in production vehicles.
    VW may have been the big scalp caught cheating with diesel emissions but a lot of other manufacturers
    we're gaming the tests on diesels and gasoline by using certain relaxations with temperature cut outs
    on emission equipment but not seeking approval to do so before submitting for final approval. Many
    also gamed fuel economy testing by over inflating tires to get better roll down resistance figures
    for dyno load calculations. Of course an Econetic diesel Focus could boast UK 89 mpg but no one
    could get close to that in the real world. Europe was one big BS show until people started checking.
    Truly bizarre. I realize people "get away with it" all the time. See UAW bigshots for details. Considering the risk/reward potential, wouldn't it pay better to spend more $$$ on engineering better MPG into the cars, rather than risk even more money in fines, shaming, getting fired/career destroyed, and buyback orders?
    Reminds me of the guys who run from cops. Yeah, you MIGHT get away. But with 99:1 odds, uhh...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
    The original software was developed by Bosch and was never intended for use in production vehicles.
    VW may have been the big scalp caught cheating with diesel emissions but a lot of other manufacturers
    we're gaming the tests on diesels and gasoline by using certain relaxations with temperature cut outs
    on emission equipment but not seeking approval to do so before submitting for final approval. Many
    also gamed fuel economy testing by over inflating tires to get better roll down resistance figures
    for dyno load calculations. Of course an Econetic diesel Focus could boast UK 89 mpg but no one
    could get close to that in the real world. Europe was one big BS show until people started checking.
    Truly bizarre. I realize people "get away with it" all the time. See UAW bigshots for details. Considering the risk/reward potential, wouldn't it pay better to spend more $$$ on engineering better MPG into the cars, rather than risk even more money in fines, shaming, getting fired/career destroyed, and buyback orders?
    Reminds me of the guys who run from cops. Yeah, you MIGHT get away. But with 99:1 odds, uhh...<img src="https://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/images/smilies/chairfall.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Fall" class="inlineimg" />
    The big issue at VW was that no one was permitted to question the decisions of superiors like Winterkorn.
    In 2007, VW was on a mission to save $13 billion, doing clean diesel properly was projected to cost $3 billion
    over the next 10 years, so it was scrapped in favour of a system that the senior engineer wrongly assumed
    could be made to work effectively. This managerial disconnect and lack of engineering push back is not
    unique to VW..,....the institutional thinking was to work the regulations not spend the cash.

    The real reason Europe is now turning it's back on diesel is because manufacturers lied so much and for so long
    about the true reductions in CO2 emission, that carrying them into the new tight CO2 testing procedures just won't work.
    Governments going one step further an effective banning ICEs in the near future, another nail in the coffin.

    Sorry for being so long winded but, I'm convinced that most manufacturers were at the very least playing fast and loose with the rules, the EU approval of emission and fuel economy data was nowhere as rigorous as the US EPA...although it took themEPA ahead of persuing VW to get a satisfactory answer...

    All these companies dropped their moral compass years ago as money became more important than engineering integrity (Lutz said GM couldn't replicate VW's results with the same equipment).
    Last edited by jpd80; 06-30-2020 at 07:16 PM.

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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    Quote Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
    The big issue at VW was that no one was permitted to question the decisions of superiors like Winterkorn.
    In 2007, VW was on a mission to save $13 billion, doing clean diesel properly was projected to cost $3 billion
    over the next 10 years, so it was scrapped in favour of a system that the senior engineer wrongly assumed
    could be made to work effectively. This managerial disconnect and lack of engineering push back is not
    unique to VW..,....the institutional thinking was to work the regulations not spend the cash.

    The real reason Europe is now turning it's back on diesel is because manufacturers lied so much and for so long
    about the true reductions in CO2 emission, that carrying them into the new tight CO2 testing procedures just won't work.
    Governments going one step further an effective banning ICEs in the near future, another nail in the coffin.

    Sorry for being so long winded but, I'm convinced that most manufacturers were at the very least playing fast and loose with the rules, the EU approval of emission and fuel economy data was nowhere as rigorous as the US EPA...although it took themEPA ahead of persuing VW to get a satisfactory answer...

    All these companies dropped their moral compass years ago as money became more important than engineering integrity (Lutz said GM couldn't replicate VW's results with the same equipment).
    That's what happens when politicians and bureaucrats, not engineers, start trying to reduce emissions simply by imposing ever tighter limits - the engineers start finding novel ways to produce data to satisfy the politicians and bureaucrats - IMO it's a major failing in the principles of the EU.

    In VW's case it simply came down to money - the 4-cylinder diesel models needed Adblue (DEF) and SCR but the additional cost was unacceptable - the 6/8/10-cylinder diesels were only fitted to premium priced models which could absorb the extra cost.

    The politicians in many European cities have introduced, or will introduce, Ultra Low Emissions Zones (ULEZ) which will severely restrict the use of diesel cars - but of course the environmentalists are now complaining that CO2 is rising, directly due to the switch from diesel to petrol(gasoline).

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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruperts Trooper View Post
    That's what happens when politicians and bureaucrats, not engineers, start trying to reduce emissions simply by imposing ever tighter limits - the engineers start finding novel ways to produce data to satisfy the politicians and bureaucrats - IMO it's a major failing in the principles of the EU.

    In VW's case it simply came down to money - the 4-cylinder diesel models needed Adblue (DEF) and SCR but the additional cost was unacceptable - the 6/8/10-cylinder diesels were only fitted to premium priced models which could absorb the extra cost.

    The politicians in many European cities have introduced, or will introduce, Ultra Low Emissions Zones (ULEZ) which will severely restrict the use of diesel cars - but of course the environmentalists are now complaining that CO2 is rising, directly due to the switch from diesel to petrol(gasoline).
    Indeed. Pie-in-the-sky dreamers and envirowackos who live in their own little isolated fantasy world, and who personally pay no consequences for ANY of their almighty decisions and decrees, are the Royalty system that Europe and the USA shucked long long ago. We've recreated it now, and again it must be torn down or we will all pay a terrible price. It's so similar to the recent spate of governor-induced business closings, while the governors and their staff continued to be paid and to have access to their own doctors while the peasantry got thrown out of work and could not go to routine doctor visits, much less have "elective" surgery which isn't always so elective. A fine mess.
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    I abhor social engineering where economic rhetoric exceeds the science to achieve it,
    Europe leaped to fuel efficient diesels as a way of taking the moral high ground with
    lowering CO2 but traded one poison for others, NOX and ultrafine particles.

    They would have got better results out of petrol hybrids with less poisons
    and been on the road to electrification years ago.

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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruperts Trooper View Post
    That's exactly how it was - I can't think of one brand selling diesels in Europe that was above reproach, including Opel/Vauxhall while owned by GM - fortunately for most of them, VW Group were taken to task in the USA where the law is stronger and this deflected the European scandal away from the other car makers, some of whom quietly fixed their engines rather than deny wrongdoing.
    I have yet to see the emissions finger pointed at U.S. Cruze 2.0TD... it's just about the only one.
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    Re: UK: Nissan and Renault accused of using fraudulent software

    Quote Originally Posted by eaton53 View Post
    I have yet to see the emissions finger pointed at U.S. Cruze 2.0TD... it's just about the only one.
    I don't know what the differences are between the Cruze 2.0TD and the 2.0 TDI used in Opel/Vauxhalls but the latter were very much in the frame - all credit to them, rather than denying the issue they changed the production spec and made the changes available to existing owners FOC

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