Mercedes back to I6?

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Thread: Mercedes back to I6?

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    Mercedes back to I6?

    I spotted this article from Autoblog, Mercedes is working on straight-six engines.
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/25/m...t-six-engines/

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    Yes yes Mercedes yes. They have finally gotten tired of BMW kicking their tails in the 6 cylinder department.

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    That would be most bizarre marketing move- the rest of the industry (besides BMW) has abandoned inlines long ago.

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    I wonder if the idea is to have a modular family of three, four and six cylinder engines. With turbos, this would cover a lot of the market with a single matrix of parts/engineering. The key would be really tight bore centres to keep engine length reasonable. If you know you are going to use turbos to get power, this could work -- imagine a 2.5 straight six with twin turbos and 300 - 400 hp.

    Wonder if Nissan/Infiniti would have access to these engines.

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    Has anybody consider the real motivation behind such move is because current Benz V6 family is shared with Chrysler?

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    From what I understand, the only truly balanced engines are in-line 6s and 60 degree V12s. They may simply be going to smaller engines that are better balanced.

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    I love this idea! Yay.

    Now Cadillac has to make its HF V6s as refined as these new I6 behemoths under development.
    When will Caddy give me a chance to buy one?

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    I wonder if the idea is to have a modular family of three, four, <,five > and six cylinder engines. With turbos, this would cover a lot of the market with a single matrix of parts/engineering. The key would be really tight bore centres to keep engine length reasonable. If you know you are going to use turbos to get power, this could work -- imagine a 2.5 straight six with twin turbos and 300 - 400 hp.

    Wonder if Nissan/Infiniti would have access to these engines.
    MB certainly go their money's worth out of all their previous modular inline programs in the past - perhaps especially with the diesels as has VW.


    - and then if you're still going to offer a larger V8 and or V12... you've got the length covered anyway - 'displaced' accessories could help with all this as well.


    - besides,in practical terms, nothing 'out torques' a straight six at low rpm - least of all a V6 - which is really where the game is now headed.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 10-25-2011 at 10:32 PM.
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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    Mercedes now looks so much more appealing to me. I kinda view an inline six as special and my big thing with MB is why would I buy one when I can get a V6 anywhere?

    Just like styling, if a MB looks like a Kia, other than the name , why get an MB?

    But that is just my thought on the whole thing.

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    Yes, Mercedes. Go back to your I-6s. This is highly appealing to me.

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    An inline 6 is allways going to cream a V6 for outright smoothness

    Some of the most iconic engines in the world have been inline sixes - Jag , BMW to name a couple

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Ford, and a host of other companies are moving towards forced induction in a big way.

    So I wonder if there's some engineering reason that putting turbochargers or superchargers on an inline 6 is more power efficient, more fuel efficient, more space efficient, more weight efficient, cheaper or some combination of the five than putting turbochargers or superchargers on a V6.

    My only experience with an I6 is in my friend's BMW 128. It's an impressive engine. The power delivery is surprisingly good for a 3 liter naturally aspirated engine and the exhaust note is much richer and deeper than any V6 I've ever heard. It's not as good as a V8, of course.

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deco28 View Post
    I love this idea! Yay.

    Now Cadillac has to make its HF V6s as refined as these new I6 behemoths under development.
    i6 as a behemoth?

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me View Post
    From what I understand, the only truly balanced engines are in-line 6s and 60 degree V12s.
    Because an inline 6 is balanced, I'm pretty sure you could join two at any angle and they'd still make a balanced V12. Boxer engines are also balanced, as are cross-plane V8s.

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    Re: Mercedes back to I6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me View Post
    From what I understand, the only truly balanced engines are in-line 6s and 60 degree V12s. They may simply be going to smaller engines that are better balanced.

    - no not really, nothing really is - that we talk about here ie a four cycle ice with reciprocating pistons , simple con rods (no blade and fork ) & offset vee arrangements as needed - and with a one piece crankshaft.

    An I6 shines 'typically' in terms of the lowest cost, lowest cylinder count for primary and secondary mechanical balance.


    Notice the use of the word " mechanical " ie w/o combustion occurring which messes everything up to one degree or another due to the uneven combustion pressures during piston travel combined with the ever changing con rod angularity and effective length ( applied leverage), and also the lack of the word "tertiary."

    In other words, while running, the forces or the 'torques' each piston rod assembly brings to bear on the crank while running do not naturally cancel out - not even close on an inline six.


    If you go a little farther with it then some of the negatives ( which literally all layouts under discussion here have ) becomes apparent.


    The main one on a first pass has to do with ....


    Torsional twist - flex - uneven loads - 'vibration' - 'buzz' of the long crankshafts and cams.

    ( this is why inline six mechanical failures outside of defective parts, lack of lube, horrific levels of detonation or over revving etc et al almost always involve a crank shaft or camshaft failure first or do so quickly and but for certain eventually.)


    The only thing worse in this regard and better in all others is a straight eight or in a different way, a "V" sixteen.

    ( It's really worth taking a ride in an old straight eight and keeping the rpm below 2,000 /3,000 ish - especially between idle and below 1500 / 2000 - nothing quite like it )


    Automotive "V" layouts of any kind each have their own + / - in terms of mechanical balance and 'running' ( 'combustion on' ) balance.


    There are few universals about all this - just like with many of the alternatives.


    One would be - that works in their favor - in terms of an eight cylinder + but most definitely not in a V6 versus I6 is the greater number of smaller, firing pulses per cycle - which is non layout specific.


    And this isn't just about how many more smaller pulses or 'torques' are applied per crankshaft rotational cycle - it also has to do with having less asymmetric ie more desirable torque pulse shapes per cylinder unit cycle.


    ( Worth noting, even an inline twelve or sixteen would be better yet in many ways than a V with the same cylinder count and with a one piece crankshaft but then again that's not even remotely practical for automotive use and given how good even a V eight can be made - who cares ? )


    The other one would be that without a two piece crank - or blade and fork con rods or articulated - that allows each bank to be exactly opposite the other rather than staggered - as all one piece crank "V"s are in order to fit the simple rods to the crank......... perfect balance is virtually impossible to achieve no matter the angle..... and or cylinder count.


    ( A Merlin V12 for instance does use a blade and fork con rod arrangement - with no appreciable bank stagger to help reduce this bank stagger source of imperfection. )


    In the end it's just a balancing act ( pun intended) between the ever changing tech optimization and each type of layout's pluses and minuses.


    Depending on your point of view going in, once you get to five........ or six cylinders on a four cycle 'conventional', then its more a case of they all offer a different mix ie they're different rather than one having an absolute net superiority - outside of the cylinder count for sure........ and often enough to matter even with that in there in terms of practical application.

    In certain circles, V6s are considered inferior in a net sense in terms of all this - really a 'different' but rough equivalent to an I5 - but then again, all the other optimization issues come forward and easily push them along - to the front of the line for most and pretty much in terms of packaging.


    Which is the same kind of logic as to why we have so many of the 'highly inferior' .... I4s today..... with more coming....... and I3s right behind.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 10-26-2011 at 09:13 PM.
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