Poor, Poor Ford

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Thread: Poor, Poor Ford

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    Poor, Poor Ford

    Detroit is arguably still teetering from bankruptcy, and can't afford to fix the lead in the water issue to protect it's kids, but Ford can't rehap the Michigan Central Station for an iconic headquarters without $293M from the city of Detroit.

    Clueless and up their own ass.

    It's Ford's idea to do this, and it's Ford's Autonomous Vehicle Headquarters.

    Government Motors isn't trying to hoodwink the taxpayer for it's investments that I know of.

    Where is the US based news report of this issue?

    I can't wait to hear the demands that FCA will make now that Ford has the audacity to Go Fund Me Taxpayer it's R&D.

    "The public would do so with a package of tax incentives pulling money from the city, state, county and local schools. On Tuesday, the Detroit city council will consider $103m in incentives that would come from the city, and, ahead of the vote, Ford is insisting the project isn’t financially feasible without public assistance.

    However, there’s debate over whether a city that emerged from bankruptcy just three years ago and only has $169m in its unassigned fund balance should approve a lucrative tax deal for a multinational corporation with nearly $17bn on hand. The council president pro tem, Mary Sheffield, called parts of the package “excessive”, while a range of residents and community groups are vocally opposed.

    “In a perfect world, we wouldn’t have these incentives at all, but that’s not our political reality in Detroit,” said Linda Campbell of Equitable Detroit, a group pushing for a stronger community benefits agreement for the deal. She called the $10m community benefits agreement Ford is offering “meager”.

    Meanwhile, the right-leaning Mackinac Center pointed to studies that show tax incentives often don’t result in the desired economic impact, partly because they divert funding from other city services.

    “In this case, that could mean fire and police equipment not purchased or repaired; school books unbought; or even broad-based tax relief for all businesses, not just one,” said Michael LaFaive, the Mackinac Center’s fiscal policy director. “Government ultimately has nothing to give anyone it doesn’t take from someone else.”

    Though approval of the deal won’t immediately divert school funds, there’s still concern over the optics of giving Ford school money when the financially struggling Detroit Public Schools Community District can’t afford to address elevated lead levels in its buildings’ water.

    In making the case for public assistance, Ford is highlighting the project’s scope. The 500,000 sq ft station would hold offices, condos in its top two floors, and retail and restaurants on the ground floor. It’s targeting a 2022 completion at which time the campus may hold 5,000 employees, most of whom will relocate from Ford’s Dearborn headquarters or its suppliers. In other words, these are largely not new positions, and there are no clawbacks built into the deal if the jobs don’t materialize."






    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...etroits-blight
    Last edited by Carbide; 10-15-2018 at 09:45 PM.

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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Ultimately, no corporation pays taxes, it get passed on the the end user.............

    How many decades has the train station sat in shambles?............

    Wouldn't all the workers that Ford house there, pay city taxes?............

    If Detroit can't pay to fix every building in the city, wouldn't incentivizing other companies to do so, make sense?

    Is tax incentives for community investment, something new?
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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Detroit could well have passed the tipping point for FUBAR:

    The school board, invariably re-elected by loyal Detroit residents to govern the district, were manifestly incompetent and entirely ungovernable themselves:

    Only $400 million has been spent of a $1.5 billion bond issue for long-term capital improvements approved in 1994. A series of school superintendents have been hired, promising substantial changes, only to end up arguing with the school board and leaving.


    That's right: Democrat board members weren't even organized enough to blow $1.5 billion in taxpayer funds. It's not as if they didn't have time while being chauffeured around in limousines.

    When the school board was ousted and replaced with an unelected reform board in 1999, Detroit residents were outraged, calling it undemocratic to replace an elected school board and racist that white politicians (Mayor Archer was black) should be making decisions over what happens in majority-black Detroit. Under the reform board, things improved, but not much, as the damage was too deep. Enrollment continued to drop, taking per-pupil funding with it.

    In 2004, Detroiters voted to return to an elected school board. But soon, "budget missteps, corruption, financial mismanagement and enrollment losses ushered in" another round of state intervention, this time under a Democrat, Governor Jennifer Granholm. In 2009, when it came to light that "[d]istrict officials, including the school board ... had problems keeping track of how much money was coming in and what was owed," Granholm appointed Robert Bobb as emergency financial manager. He immediately figured out that basic administrative tasks were being screwed up, and "1,545 DPS employees had ineligible dependents on the staff, costing the district an estimated $2.6 million." Looking back later, Bobb said he'd "found Detroit Public Schools to be a magnificent vessel of wholesale theft and graft. Not one area of management escaped the thieves and defrauders." That included food service workers; teachers (and a teacher's mother!); and even members of his security team, who lied about overtime.

    By 2016, the "culture of corruption" in the district led to federal charges against a dozen current and former school principals who were "taking bribes and kickbacks from a school supplies vendor and fabricating invoices from the city's beleaguered public schools." The scheme stretched all the way back to 2002 (and even liberal commentator Jack Lessenberry became convinced "that Detroit Public School administrators deserve to be held in contempt"). By the time six of the crooked principals were pleading guilty to their role in the kickback scheme, Michigan's Republican lawmakers were finalizing a $617-million bailout to save the district from bankruptcy. While Michigan citizens watched yet more tax dollars consigned to oblivion, Democrat legislators were griping that the bailout wasn't big enough.

    At the end of 2017, Michigan Capitol Confidential reported that per-student spending for the Detroit Public Schools Community District was higher:

    ... [t]han all but eight of the nation's 100 largest school districts, or $14,259. Even with all that money, the district still generated the nation's worst reading scores among low-income students. The Miami-Dade district spends $8,725 per student (some $5,500 less than Detroit), and children from low-income households there had the best literacy rates among large cities.


    So where exactly is the "deliberate indifference" and "disinvestment" in all of this?

    Whatever is behind the literacy problems in Detroit schools, it's not lack of money, state indifference, or "disinvestment." Nor did Judge Murphy find any basis for a claim of racial discrimination against the defendants. Not that any of that will matter to the folks who brought this lawsuit, nor to the misinformed segment of the public whose indignation all of this is meant to stir up.



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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    Ultimately, no corporation pays taxes, it get passed on the the end user.............

    How many decades has the train station sat in shambles?............

    Wouldn't all the workers that Ford house there, pay city taxes?............

    If Detroit can't pay to fix every building in the city, wouldn't incentivizing other companies to do so, make sense?

    Is tax incentives for community investment, something new?
    If you read the article, there really aren't a going to be a lot of new employees, they will just be moved into the New Tower.

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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbide View Post
    If you read the article, there really aren't a going to be a lot of new employees, they will just be moved into the New Tower.
    So then Detroit should fix it up themselves, or just leave it like that for another 40 years?

    2,500 x ~$100,000 = $250,000,000 x 2.4% = $6,000,000 in DIRECT tax revenue annually.

    I take it you didn't disagree with the rest of my comments?


    Ultimately, no corporation pays taxes, it get passed on the the end user.............

    How many decades has the train station sat in shambles?............

    Wouldn't all the workers that Ford house there, pay city taxes?............

    If Detroit can't pay to fix every building in the city, wouldn't incentivizing other companies to do so, make sense?

    Is tax incentives for community investment, something new?
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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Everyone who works in Detroit has to pay income tax. That's a big building that could fit a lot of tax-contributing cubicles.
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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    Ultimately, no corporation pays taxes, it get passed on the the end user.............
    Death and taxes are the only 2 certainties in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    How many decades has the train station sat in shambles?............
    Whose fault is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    Wouldn't all the workers that Ford house there, pay city taxes?............
    They already are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    If Detroit can't pay to fix every building in the city, wouldn't incentivizing other companies to do so, make sense?
    Cities don't pay to fix any building, they are not real estate investors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    Is tax incentives for community investment, something new?
    Tax dollars to pay for a private asset of a private entity is community investment?

    Community Investment is paying for the parks so that people have a place to go, paying for clean water, paying for the streets to not have pot holes, paying for the bridges to not collapse, paying for critical infrastructure vital for the city's operations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    So then Detroit should fix it up themselves, or just leave it like that for another 40 years?
    The previous owners left it to degrade to the point that it has, in the hopes that if they hold out long enough, someone will absolve them of any financial obligation and enable them to cash out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    2,500 x ~$100,000 = $250,000,000 x 2.4% = $6,000,000 in DIRECT tax revenue annually.
    Made up numbers do not equal real results.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesda1 View Post
    Everyone who works in Detroit has to pay income tax. That's a big building that could fit a lot of tax-contributing cubicles.
    They will also have to pay higher property taxes and higher school taxes to make up for the lost budget revenue.
    Last edited by JimmyDiablo; 10-16-2018 at 02:12 AM.

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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    More details from Detroit Free Press
    https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...wn/1115815002/


    In June Ford announced that it had purchased the Michigan Central Station and several other properties in the neighborhood for the purpose of building a tech campus where as many as 5,000 people eventually could work.

    It had been implied, at the time, that tax abatement would play a role in the development, but the specifics had been vague, with Ford opaquely sharing last month that it planned to spend nearly $740 million on renovations and would seek from "federal, state and local economic development groups and officials" at least $250 million in "tax or other incentives" to support the project.

    ================================================== ==============

    On Monday, the DEGC broke down how this would ideally play out — with $103,591,804 in tax incentives coming from the City of Detroit and $134,967,693 coming from other sources. The total estimated abatements come out to $238,559,497.

    The tax abatements would come from an array of requested incentives.

    According to the presentation, Ford is asking for:

    *$208,796,791 in tax abatements for being in a Renaissance Zone. This is an abatement of real and personal property taxes, city corporate income tax, and utility users tax. It would occur over 30 years. Nearly $90 million would come from the City of Detroit.

    *$8,056,085 from the Commercial Rehabilitation Act (P.A. 210). It would occur over 10 years. Nearly $4 million would come from the City of Detroit.

    *$18,763,677 from the Obsolete Property Rehabilitation Act (OPRA). This act allows the taxable value of a property to be frozen at its pre-improvement value with some exceptions. It would last 12 years and nearly $9 million would come from the City of Detroit.

    *$2,933,944 from the Neighborhood Enterprise Zone Act. This law allows taxable values of property to be frozen at their pre-improved value. This incentive lasts 17 years (it reduces at 15 years) and just over $1 million would come from the City of Detroit. The benefits accrued would affect future condo owners, rather than Ford.

    To come up with these figures, the DEGC said it analyzed the economic benefit of having Ford move to Corktown. It said it anticipates a $370.1-million net fiscal benefit to the city over 35 years.
    Renewal plus a recurring +$10 Million/ year benefit to the city over the next 35 years...
    Last edited by jpd80; 10-16-2018 at 03:34 AM.

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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Incentive spending to boost the economy is abhorrent behavior conservatives say.

    these claims are based off city and Ford projections – not those of an independent body – and are full of vague assumptions.
    Do the estimations stipulate when all these benefits will start rolling in? Because as someone who works in the industry, I can tell you that the Train Station alone, will take at least 5 years to complete, probably closer to 10, to get every square foot operational. Now add all the other buildings they want to renovate. It will be a long time before all the estimated jobs are moved from one location to this and will start to return on the investment.

    Defending corporate welfare is like being a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. It just doesn't hold up.
    Last edited by JimmyDiablo; 10-16-2018 at 04:57 AM.

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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyDiablo View Post
    Incentive spending to boost the economy is abhorrent behavior conservatives say.



    Do the estimations stipulate when all these benefits will start rolling in? Because as someone who works in the industry, I can tell you that the Train Station alone, will take at least 5 years to complete, probably closer to 10, to get every square foot operational. Now add all the other buildings they want to renovate. It will be a long time before all the estimated jobs are moved from one location to this and will start to return on the investment.
    How about all the construction and related jobs that will be created during the 5-year renovation period?

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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by longislander View Post
    How about all the construction and related jobs that will be created during the 5-year renovation period?
    Construction jobs are temporary. And the quantity of workers per trade will vary greatly depending on a number of variables. Some trades can work simultaneously, some can't. Sometimes you have a 100 guys working, sometimes you have 5. Availability of materials, equipment, and fixtures are a huge factor.

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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Ok, can I ask "If not Ford, then Who should get the building and the Tax $$$$s to repair it?"

    Many years ago, a Big Push was started in our Town. "Are High School is Condemned!" A lot of banter back and forth, and Funding for a New School was approved. The New School was build and Suddenly, there were not enough funds to destroy the Old School.

    Prime Down Town Property, with a Condemned Building and a 1 Million Dollar price tag to remove it. It was eventually sold to a Businessman for $1.00 who turned it into Office Buildings. The first building opened was the Condemned portion BTW. Yea Business Man strikes it Rich! right?

    Well Taxes are now being paid, New and other Businesses have work space, people are employed, and life goes on.

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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    While I don't agree with tax incentives, actually find them very distasteful since the government is picking the winners/losers in it, I find the Ford incentive less distasteful than the almost 4 billion Wis is giving to Foxconn for a number of reasons. Firstly, Ford is an American company, and Foxconn is foreign. And second, Ford has paid a great deal of tax over its lifetime(and much in Detroit) and is just getting some back. Foxconn is just getting a windfall. Latest number I saw was the Foxconn deal was costing 1 mil/job. That is like paying someone 50K for 20 years of incentive assuming 0% interest. Crazy stupid.

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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    Ultimately, no corporation pays taxes, it get passed on the the end user.............

    How many decades has the train station sat in shambles?............

    Wouldn't all the workers that Ford house there, pay city taxes?............

    If Detroit can't pay to fix every building in the city, wouldn't incentivizing other companies to do so, make sense?

    Is tax incentives for community investment, something new?
    But if it was GM asking for the tax breaks we'd be hearing a totally different story from you...

    At least you're consistent!

    So now you support liberal/socialist principles when it benefits you? But otherwise you're conservative?

    At least you're consistent!
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    Re: Poor, Poor Ford

    In principle, I am opposed to corporate welfare. Ford should find the money to buy the place and fix it. Write off the expense.

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