Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

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Thread: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

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    Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    May 26, 2017 @ 5:37 am
    Dalia Fahey
    Bloomberg



    BERLIN -- German carmakers found themselves at the receiving end of renewed attacks by President Donald Trump, who reportedly chided them for selling too many vehicles in the U.S., contributing to a lopsided German trade surplus that's hurting the U.S. economy.

    "The Germans are bad, very bad," Trump told EU officials in a closed-door meeting, Der Spiegel reported, citing unidentified attendees. "Look at the millions of cars that they sell in the U.S. Terrible. We're going to stop that."

    Trump's top economic adviser acknowledged that the president said Germany is "very bad" when it comes to flooding the U.S. with cars, but insisted it wasn't a dig at one of the U.S.'s most-important allies.

    "He said, 'They're very bad on trade,' but he doesn't have a problem with Germany," Gary Cohn, director of the National Economic Council, said. "He said his dad is from Germany. He said, 'I don't have a problem with Germany, I have a problem with German trade'."

    Trump has repeatedly criticized Germany's high trade surplus with the U.S. In a Bild newspaper interview in January, he threatened BMW with a 35 percent import duty for foreign-built cars sold in the country.

    "If you go down Fifth Avenue everyone has a Mercedes-Benz in front of his house," he told Bild, while lamenting the lack of Chevrolets in Germany. General Motors has withdrawn the brand from Europe for some years.

    German carmakers such as Daimler, Volkswagen Group and BMW have responded to the attacks with a mix of defiance and mollification. BMW CEO Harald Krueger, one of a small group of business leaders to accompany German Chancellor Angela Merkel on her first trip to visit Trump at the White House, has defended the importance of free trade and noted that BMW's biggest plant worldwide is in Spartanburg, South Carolina -- making the manufacturer the biggest exporter on a net basis from the U.S.

    Representatives at Volkswagen and Daimler declined to comment on the remarks reported by Der Spiegel. A BMW spokesman wasn't immediately available.

    The German trade surplus rose to a record 253 billion euros ($284 billion) last year, and the U.S. trade deficit widened in January to the most since March 2012.

    In addition to drawing Trump's ire, the German imbalance has sparked criticism by European Union leaders including French President Emmanuel Macron.

    While Merkel has yet to address Trump's criticism publicly, her government was quick to respond. "Germany's position on the issue of trade balances and surpluses is well known," German government spokesman Georg Streiter told reporters in Berlin. "A surplus is neither good nor evil. It's the result of supply and demand."

    LINK

    Cadillac have nothing to lose in Europe, but could gain a lot in the US. BMW & Mercedes get to claim the VAT tax of 19% back for every car it exports to the US so it pays to export rather than sell new cars in Germany.

    Both Ford and Opel the mass producers got overtaken in April sales in Europe by low volume quality carmakers Mercedes Benz, BMW went past Opel.

    2016 European Sales April
    No 5 Ford 86,791
    No 6 Opel Group 81,087
    No 7 BMW Group 80,795
    No 8 Mercedes Group 79,446

    2017 European Sales April
    No 5 Mercedes Group 77,277 -2.7%
    No 6 Ford 76,899 -11.4%
    No 7 BMW Group 75,965 -6%
    No 8 Opel Group 70,227-13.4%

    Never seen both Ford or Opel ever sitting down so low down in the EU sales charts thats very sad to see, long gone are the days in the early 70's when both GM & Ford use to make relatively huge profits from its European operations.
    Last edited by Oldsmobile stopped; 05-26-2017 at 04:56 PM.
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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Trump's ignorance of the auto industry is terrifying
    Bussinesinsider
    by Matthew DeBord

    Trump said he would stop German automakers from selling "millions of cars" in the US, Der Spiegel reported.

    There are so many ways to unpack what's wrong in that statement. German car brands — namely Volkswagen, BMW, Porsche, Audi, and Mercedes — account for only about 7% of annual US auto sales.

    We're talking a little over a million cars a year. Ford and GM sell five times that.

    Maybe more important, given Trump's obsession with creating US manufacturing jobs, is that many of these German cars are actually made in the United States, in factories that were hailed as economic windfalls for the southern states they are located in.
    Germans have been selling cars in the US for decades, dating all the way back to the wildly successful Volkswagen Beetle. And Volkswagen — the only real mass-market competitor from Germany — is a notably feeble threat. Its market share in the US is a pathetic 2% (if you round up slightly).

    For this, VW built an entire plant in Tennessee, employing 2,000 workers directly.

    Where the Germans do dominate is in the luxury market, where Mercedes, BMW, and VW Group's Audi all have a strong presence. Both BMW and Mercedes also have established factories in the US South. In BMW's case, over half its SUV production in South Carolina is actually exported out of the country.

    There also isn't much head-to-head competition between American automakers and the Germans in this market. American luxury brands such as General Motors' Cadillac and Ford's Lincoln sell half as many vehicles in the US as the Germans, but the focus of GM and Ford is on big mass-market SUVs and pickups, highly profitable vehicles for which there is almost no challenge from German brands.

    So this is another one of those cases in which Trump just doesn't know what he's talking about — but he says it anyway. Maybe he thinks German cars are competing unfairly against American cars because there are a lot of bimmers and mercs in the parking lot at Mar a Lago and other Trump country clubs.
    So, were he serious, Trump could undertake a policy that makes it difficult for German automakers to export to the US. But that wouldn't do much to help American carmakers, and it would just enrage consumers who love their BMW SUVs and would never consider a Cadillac or a Lincoln, regardless of how great those vehicles might be.

    Of course, Ford and GM wouldn't mind if BMWs and Mercedes suddenly became more expensive. They could pick up some marginal sales against the competition, but they aren't going to add enough market share with Caddy and Lincoln to justify the hiring and factory-building in the Midwest that Trump so urgently needs.
    With German, Japanese, South Korean, and even Italian cars on sale in the US, Americans are far better off than they were when GM controlled half the market back in the 1950s and early 1960s. The dirty secret is that Trump doesn't actually like competition. Many of his voters don't like it, either. They would prefer protected markets, a kind of American socialism that would mimic the static capitalism of the immediate postwar period.

    That would be a false capitalism, of course. But it would make an enemy of countries, like Germany, that aren't a threat. So Trump talks it up.

    It looks as if there's a political logic to it. But as with so much that Trump the businessman president says, it all falls apart when you examine the actual business case.

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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldsmobile stopped View Post
    May 26, 2017 @ 5:37 am

    Cadillac have nothing to lose in Europe, but could gain a lot in the US. BMW & Mercedes get to claim the VAT tax of 19% back for every car it exports to the US so it pays to export rather than sell new cars in Germany.

    Both Ford and Opel the mass producers got overtaken in April sales in Europe by low volume quality carmakers Mercedes Benz, BMW went past Opel.
    Well that is one of the way to gain a sale.. i mean Cadillac could make an effort to build better cars than the competition and building a better image for its brand....but maybe that would be to difficult
    Last edited by asrapid1; 05-26-2017 at 03:40 PM.

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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Lincoln/Cadillac account for 0.00000000000001% of the sales in Europe, they will be absolutely gutted if a automaker trade war breaks out in Europe.

    Opel have higher % numbers, but that is all meaningless if they have lost $25 billions in Europe selling the same bland very dull looking FWD Opel's in the last two decades General Motors are not benevolent society for sick Europeans like Opel whose pension scheme liability that was $11 billions in debt.

    Audi BMW, Mercedes Benz Porsche etc with 7% US market share, but they are all high end cars that make huge profit from the US market, and they can claim back 19% VAT from the German government as a reward for exporting it to the US.

    CNN - The Worlds Most Frofitable Cars LINK
    1. RWD/4WD Ford F-series 1996-2008 - EBIT $50bn
    2. RWD/4WD GM Silverado/GMC Pick-ups $40bn
    3. RWD/4WD Dodge Ram $18bn
    3. RWD Mercedes S Class $18bn
    4. RWD BMW 5-series US$24bn
    5. RWD BMW 3-series US$17bn
    6. RWD Mercedes E-Class US$13bn.
    7. RWD Lexus US$12bn
    8. FWD Honda Accord US$11bn.
    9. RWD 4WD Jeep Grand Cherokee.US$7bn.
    10. RWD Porsche 911 $10bn

    Sadly the Adams Astra's & Corsa's small FWD garbage sold in Europe in huge numbers batches to Avis & Hertz at huge $25 billion Opel losses don't make it onto the worlds most profitable cars list, whilst BMW, Mercedes & Porsches are making huge money billions and billions in the US car market unabated.
    Last edited by Oldsmobile stopped; 05-26-2017 at 03:57 PM.
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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldsmobile stopped View Post
    Lincoln/Cadillac account for 0.00000000000001% of the sales in Europe
    And why do you think is that?
    CAdillac and Lincoln products are not desirable here, they don't offer good engine choice, few dealership, lousy image etc. Mercedes E class base version cost in Germany around 43 000 € if i remember correctly..base version of Cadillac CTS is around that number (and it offers much more powerful engine also) . E class with same hp rating cost much more and people still don't want Cadillac.
    Last edited by asrapid1; 05-26-2017 at 04:22 PM.

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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Quote Originally Posted by asrapid1 View Post
    And why do you think is that?
    CAdillac and Lincoln products are not desirable here, they don't offer good engine choice, few dealership, lousy image etc. Mercedes E class base version cost in Germany around 43 000 € if i remember correctly..i think base version of Cadillac CTS is around that number (and its offer more powerful engine also) ...and people still don't want Cadillac.
    The tax system distorts markets/sales German system make it pay to export they can claim back 19% VAT tax rebate on every car they export to the US, so where do you think BMW want to sell a 3 Series in Germany or the US? , A Cadillac going on boat exported to Germany going in the opposite direction get clobbered with German 19% VAT that they can't claim back, this tax making it harder to get a foothold in Germany, it pay BMW to export to the US rather than sell a car in Germany..

    Watching the way Cadillac/Lincoln operate is very painful in the luxury car market in Europe where the cars are mainly 2.0L diesels that have to run on $9 a gallon gas, so GM send them over 6.2L Cadillac's that get absolutely clobbered with EU CO2 taxes which makes them totally unsellable, then add to the pain Cadillac fit the steering wheel in passenger seat in the UK that are cosmopolitan buyers, and Cadillacs bast shot best chance of ever making it in Europe. But the only Godsend Cadillac have not lost $25 billions in losses like Opel have in Europe in the last two decades selling them huge quantities to Hertz & Avis at a huge loss.

    When l look at US/EU luxury car sales their is a lot of market distortion thats not in China where Cadillac does well.

    EU Luxury Car Brand Sales 2016
    Mercedes Benz 839,412
    Audi 820,151
    BMW 816.888
    Porsche 69.119
    Tesla 15.451
    Cadillac 761
    Lincoln don't do the EU 0

    USA Luxury Car Brand Sales 2016
    Mercedes Benz 374.540
    BMW 313,174
    Audi 210,213
    Cadillac 170,006
    Lincoln 111.724
    Porsche 54.280
    Tesla 47.644

    SALES LINK

    If there was ever an automaker luxury car EU trade war its the Germans who would have the most to lose Trump is right, especially as GM has sold of the Opel money pit to PSA. Would a 19% VAT tax on all German luxury cars sold in the US help by giving it back to Cadillac/Lincoln as reward for exporting more cars to Germany & would people buy more Cadillacs increase its US sales if they slapped a huge tax on German luxury cars who knows? Germany looks like they have the most to lose to me.
    Last edited by Oldsmobile stopped; 05-26-2017 at 06:20 PM.
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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    It's gonna be a long year.

    I've never considered it sane before, but maybe there does need to be an intelligence test to vote.

    What a cult.

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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldsmobile stopped View Post
    The tax system distorts markets/sales German system make it pay to export they can claim back 19% VAT tax rebate on every car they export to the US, so where do you think BMW want to sell a 3 Series in Germany or the US? , A Cadillac going on boat exported to Germany going in the opposite direction get clobbered with German 19% VAT that they can't claim back, this tax making it harder to get a foothold in Germany, it pay BMW to export to the US rather than sell a car in Germany..

    Watching the way Cadillac/Lincoln operate is very painful in the luxury car market in Europe where the cars are mainly 2.0L diesels that have to run on $9 a gallon gas, so GM send them over 6.2L Cadillac's that get absolutely clobbered with EU CO2 taxes which makes them totally unsellable, then add to the pain Cadillac fit the steering wheel in passenger seat in the UK that are cosmopolitan buyers, and Cadillacs bast shot best chance of ever making it in Europe. But the only Godsend Cadillac have not lost $25 billions in losses like Opel have in Europe in the last two decades selling them huge quantities to Hertz & Avis at a huge loss.

    When l look at US/EU luxury car sales their is a lot of market distortion thats not in China where Cadillac does well.

    EU Luxury Car Brand Sales 2016
    Mercedes Benz 839,412
    Audi 820,151
    BMW 816.888
    Porsche 69.119
    Tesla 15.451
    Cadillac 761
    Lincoln don't do the EU 0

    USA Luxury Car Brand Sales 2016
    Mercedes Benz 374.540
    BMW 313,174
    Audi 210,213
    Cadillac 170,006
    Lincoln 111.724
    Porsche 54.280
    Tesla 47.644

    SALES LINK

    If there was ever an automaker luxury car EU trade war its the Germans who would have the most to lose Trump is right, especially as GM has sold of the Opel money pit to PSA. Would a 19% VAT tax on all German luxury cars sold in the US help by giving it back to Cadillac/Lincoln as reward for exporting more cars to Germany & would people buy more Cadillacs increase its US sales if they slapped a huge tax on German luxury cars who knows? Germany looks like they have the most to lose to me.
    I was wondering what Trump is looking to get from making those statements, perhaps you touched on the end-game. Trump does come off looking bad with his statements, but I do think with some of them he is making these outsized comments to start as a bargaining point to get something.

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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Quote Originally Posted by asrapid1 View Post
    Well that is one of the way to gain a sale.. i mean Cadillac could make an effort to build better cars than the competition and building a better image for its brand....but maybe that would be to difficult
    It's particularly difficult when your home turf is overrun with the opposition and you can't even get your foot in the door on theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbide View Post
    It's gonna be a long year.

    I've never considered it sane before, but maybe there does need to be an intelligence test to vote.

    What a cult.
    Please let there be. I don't think it would turn out quite like you'd expect.

    On the plus side either way, I probably wouldn't have to press 1 for English when I call for customer support when there's no third world underclass to buy votes from and undermine me and mine with my own tax dollars.

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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    If your car isn't made in country where you sell it you tax it..that is o.k.

    But this won't help Cadillac in Europe. It is not taxes that destroy Cadillac selling chance here.

    Maybe it will force people in U.S.A to buy CAdillac/Lincoln but even in U.S.A people rather buy something from Germany (in luxury car market) than Cadillac. And Mercedes are more expensive than Cadillac even in U.S.A and they still sell in larger number..Cadillac is loosing on its home turf. Low selling numbers of Cadillacs around the world are not caused by taxes.

    Maybe with new product (in next 5-10 years) situation will get better for Cadillac and if new taxes are implemented Cadillac can gain sales..it is easier that way then to develop a better cars than the competition.
    Even Trump owns a Rolls Royce. A company owned by a BMW. And a Mercedes S600. Does he owns a CT6 maybe?

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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Quote Originally Posted by sfbreh View Post
    It's particularly difficult when your home turf is overrun with the opposition and you can't even get your foot in the door on theirs.
    Yes they can't but that is because they don't build cars that people wants, with engine they want , image they want, and enough dealerships. Even if they offer more "bangs fore buck" they can't sell it.

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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbide View Post
    It's gonna be a long year.

    I've never considered it sane before, but maybe there does need to be an intelligence test to vote.

    What a cult.
    Quote Originally Posted by sfbreh View Post
    It's particularly difficult when your home turf is overrun with the opposition and you can't even get your foot in the door on theirs.



    Please let there be. I don't think it would turn out quite like you'd expect.

    On the plus side either way, I probably wouldn't have to press 1 for English when I call for customer support when there's no third world underclass to buy votes from and undermine me and mine with my own tax dollars.
    True, I think it may well just come back to bite him in the azz.

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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Quote Originally Posted by asrapid1 View Post
    If your car isn't made in country where you sell it you tax it..that is o.k.

    But this won't help Cadillac in Europe. It is not taxes that destroy Cadillac selling chance here.

    Maybe it will force people in U.S.A to buy CAdillac/Lincoln but even in U.S.A people rather buy something from Germany (in luxury car market) than Cadillac. And Mercedes are more expensive than Cadillac even in U.S.A and they still sell in larger number..Cadillac is loosing on its home turf. Low selling numbers of Cadillacs around the world are not caused by taxes.

    Maybe with new product (in next 5-10 years) situation will get better for Cadillac and if new taxes are implemented Cadillac can gain sales..it is easier that way then to develop a better cars than the competition.
    Even Trump owns a Rolls Royce. A company owned by a BMW. And a Mercedes S600. Does he owns a CT6 maybe?
    Quote Originally Posted by asrapid1 View Post
    Yes they can't but that is because they don't build cars that people wants, with engine they want , image they want, and enough dealerships. Even if they offer more "bangs fore buck" they can't sell it.
    First step is Cadillac needs to build the brand and cars that people want. But will they ever be able to sell them when the cards are heavily stacked against them? Why give a Cadillac a chance when it costs 20% more due to taxes when there is a perfectly good and known quantity BMW to buy?

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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Quote Originally Posted by asrapid1 View Post
    Trump's ignorance of the auto industry is terrifying
    Bussinesinsider
    by Matthew DeBord
    Well....... it's either that, or along the same lines ..... so a 'terrifying' kinda' immoral politicking and grandstanding for an even more disastrous and truly evil end goal - and game.

    Gee, last time I read a Major Japanese CEOs memoirs and the term 'hollowing out' was used with regard to American Manufacturing ...... it wasn't referring to the Germans.

    If they are an unfair player and a problem to deal with - then pray tell what the hell do you call the Japanese and Koreans ??????????

    Especially with regard to all post WWII history ????????


    ---

    ---

    As to the garbage about VAT and VAT only, a little recap seems to be in order.

    A vehicle - any vehicle sold in Europe, ends up paying some kind of a VAT - regardless of where sourced from.

    A vehicle - any vehicle sold in the USA does not, regardless of where sourced from.

    --


    Mr Trump needs a quick course in what is ailing and destroying this Country and has been for a very long time.

    Obviously what little signs of encouraging lip service he used during the Campaign was just that or worse or I guess - he 'forgot'.

    It also appears he needs the same concerning American Manufacturing and the Auto biz in particular.

    Shouldn't be too hard to accomplish - given a solid three fourths or so of his Cabinet etc are either the new or old generation of problem makers / Bankster types who rigged it all .........against the American people.

    Seriously, there are serious problems with American Tax Code and Law and how it seriously disadvantages American Manufacturing and Auto makers in particular - the Europeans did not write that - Goldman Sachs and all the American Spawn of Satan types did - is that the European's fault and responsibility ???

    It is often forgotten that the other victim of all the Goldman Sachs etc etc rigging for the Japanese et al gored the Euros just as much as the Americans - as far as a Level Playing Field and profitable result in the USA.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 05-27-2017 at 08:22 AM.
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    Re: Trump blasts German automakers' U.S. sales and threatens barriers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    First step is Cadillac needs to build the brand and cars that people want. But will they ever be able to sell them when the cards are heavily stacked against them? Why give a Cadillac a chance when it costs 20% more due to taxes when there is a perfectly good and known quantity BMW to buy?
    Again ..Cadillac is cheaper than BMW or Mercedes in Germany if you look at the models with around same horsepower rating .Where do you find these 20% more prices in Germany? Please put the link? Do you mean MWST (you have to pay that even if you buy German car)

    http://www.cadillac.de/content/dam/c...7_DE-de_v5.pdf

    Cheapest ATS with 276 HP cost 37 000€ (more equipment more price). C class with close HP (245 HP) cost 43 000 €. BMW 330 i with 245 HP cost 41 000 €. Again they cost lot more than ATS with more powerful engine. Or Cadillac page is lying?
    I don't see Cadillac in Germany costing more than BMW or Mercedes...please provide link for your claim.

    http://www.cadillac.de/content/dam/c...2017_DE_de.pdf

    Cheapest BMW 5 in Germany cost 45 000 €. Cheapest Mercedes E class cost 44 000 €. Cadillac comes with more powerful engine and more equipment and cost a little more. E300 class with 245 HP(vs CAdillac's 275 HP) cost around 53 000€.

    I know it is easier to blame everything else for "your" shortcoming but this is all on Cadillac.
    Last edited by asrapid1; 05-27-2017 at 10:01 AM.

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