Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

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Thread: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

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    Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Level 3 autonomy is the limit for Peugeot as its CEO reveals a $16,700 price premium would be needed for level 4 and 5 self-driving tec

    Implementing autonomous capability of levels 4 and 5 in a production car would add €15,000 (roughly $16,700) to its list price.
    That declaration was made to Auto Express by Peugeot CEO Jean-Philippe Imparato who confirmed that, for this reason, Peugeot and the PSA Group as a whole will not sell anything beyond level 3 to private buyers for the foreseeable future.

    “There is a point where the value of it is not at the level of the cost.” said Imparato. “Who is ready to spend 15,000 Euros to have this level of autonomy? Maybe one per cent or two per cent might pay that.” Imparato adds that the figure in question is not for absolute autonomy either, with the development costs of fully automated systems adding even more.

    It comes at a time when the cost of electrification is pushing up the price of cars in the short term. As battery tech becomes vital for car makers to meet increasingly-stringent low emissions demands, the cost of autonomy becomes even harder to justify.

    The PSA Group’s Executive Vice President for Quality and Engineering, Gilles Le Borgne, confirmed the news; adding that private customer-ready Level 4 and 5 tech wouldn’t be a reality for five years or more.

    “We think above level 3 we have a very difficult challenge to pass the cost to the end customer,” says Le Borgne. “The trade-off between customer benefit and extra cost is very difficult to reach for level 4 and 5 for individual customers, so we have decided to launch level 3 - we are working on low and high speeds.”

    Using the cost of the systems required to get top ratings in Euro NCAP safety tests as a start point, Le Borgne described the steps changes in cost of each level of autonomy. “Level 2 adds three thousand euros,” said Gilles, “with 60-70% of benefit [of higher autonomous levels] to the customer. Level 3 adds closer to €5-6,000. Then it will cost €10-15,000 or more for higher speeds.” Those are figures of £2,600, £4,300-£5,200, and £8,600-£13,000 respectively.

    PSA believes that the costs of the hardware and software required to make level 4 and 5 tech a viable option will need to drop by roughly 80-90 percent from their current levels. In the meantime, it will focus on what are known as Level 2+ features - systems which still require control from the driver, but giving the car a complete picture of its surroundings - and some level 3 systems. Level 2 features will be available on cars riding on the new CMP platform, including the new Peugeot 208 and the next 2008, plus replacements for the Vauxhall Corsa and Mokka X.


    Full level 5 autonomy still planned for commercial use

    However, PSA will not be abandoning full autonomy. The change in plan means that it will essentially skip level 4 tech (cars that can still be driven, but which become fully autonomous in certain areas) and move straight to level 5 (completely autonomous, no driver needed).

    This completely autonomous level, which needs no driver at all, will be the preserve of commercial use for the foreseeable future, says Le Borgne. “We are moving all our research and development efforts into shuttles and robotaxis,” adding, “Peugeot already has shuttles based on adapted Expert in operation at its Velizy, La Ferté Vidame facilities in France, while we have 25 prototype running level 4 and 5 in China.”

    The level 5 tech might arrive sooner than we think - Peugeot is set to reveal a robotic taxi which features full level 5 capability in mid-2019.

    But will that mean we never see fully autonomous Peugeot customer cars? Not entirely. Imparato suggested that there’s still a possibility ahead. “If in the coming years there is a revolution in cost per unit of this type of technology, we will see. But in the short term, it is not sustainable from an economic point of view for our customers.”


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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Interesting. Sounds like a pretty realistic appraisal.
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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    As someone whose day job is computer vision and machine learning, we are there but not quite. Soon it will be a reality and costs will come down, but it will take time.

    There was a time when 100MB of storage cost a quarter of a million dollars and weighed 85 lbs
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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Quote Originally Posted by Self Reliance View Post
    As someone whose day job is computer vision and machine learning, we are there but not quite. Soon it will be a reality and costs will come down, but it will take time.

    There was a time when 100MB of storage cost a quarter of a million dollars and weighed 85 lbs
    https://www.geek.com/chips/teardown-...drive-1531755/


    I grew up in the 1950’s, 1960’s & 1970’s - and fondly remember the various auto magazines printing numerous articles (with drawings) of the flying cars that were just around the corner, and would soon be parked in the driveway of most suburban driveways.

    I’m still waiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1999 White C5 Coupe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Self Reliance View Post
    As someone whose day job is computer vision and machine learning, we are there but not quite. Soon it will be a reality and costs will come down, but it will take time.

    There was a time when 100MB of storage cost a quarter of a million dollars and weighed 85 lbs
    https://www.geek.com/chips/teardown-...drive-1531755/


    I grew up in the 1950’s, 1960’s & 1970’s - and fondly remember the various auto magazines printing numerous articles (with drawings) of the flying cars that were just around the corner, and would soon be parked in the driveway of most suburban driveways.

    I’m still waiting.
    Flying cars are an absurd notion. They were pulling your legs.
    26 + 6 = 1

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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Quote Originally Posted by 1999 White C5 Coupe View Post
    I grew up in the 1950’s, 1960’s & 1970’s - and fondly remember the various auto magazines printing numerous articles (with drawings) of the flying cars that were just around the corner, and would soon be parked in the driveway of most suburban driveways.

    I’m still waiting.
    Yeah, flying cars. And I'm still waiting for Uncle Tom McCahill to test drive, err, fly one. While I KNOW they're just around the corner, or around the bend perhaps, that's one dang long corner.
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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Peuguot CEO is missing the point. Nobody would be buying these things unless they were a taxi business. Level 4/5 would mean one more passenger could be in the vehicle. An increase of $16K per product would be offset within a year if that additional seat could allow for an increase of $44/day in revenue to said taxi business.

    Throw in the fact that no driver would be needed as well and now that $16K increase would be even more interesting.

    Within that year, I can now see with that additional seat even more utilization out of that car.

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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Quote Originally Posted by GMOwner View Post
    Peuguot CEO is missing the point. Nobody would be buying these things unless they were a taxi business. Level 4/5 would mean one more passenger could be in the vehicle. An increase of $16K per product would be offset within a year if that additional seat could allow for an increase of $44/day in revenue to said taxi business.

    Throw in the fact that no driver would be needed as well and now that $16K increase would be even more interesting.

    Within that year, I can now see with that additional seat even more utilization out of that car.

    "<"French Accent">"What do you mean autonomous driving? Autonomous driving is for stupid Americans"<"/French accent">"
    the LACK of PAYING a driver would be MORE than 16K a YEAR for ANY business so even double that and it is good value for commercial operators

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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Quote Originally Posted by 1999 White C5 Coupe View Post
    I grew up in the 1950’s, 1960’s & 1970’s - and fondly remember the various auto magazines printing numerous articles (with drawings) of the flying cars that were just around the corner, and would soon be parked in the driveway of most suburban driveways.

    I’m still waiting.
    You want grandma flying to the store for her milk? Not me

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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Quote Originally Posted by 1999 White C5 Coupe View Post
    I grew up in the 1950’s, 1960’s & 1970’s - and fondly remember the various auto magazines printing numerous articles (with drawings) of the flying cars that were just around the corner, and would soon be parked in the driveway of most suburban driveways.

    I’m still waiting.
    Flying is the most inefficient form of transportation. Plus imagine getting people to obey 3D traffic rules. Wide-spread use of flying for personal vehicles was never a practical option.

    Autonomous driving, on the other hand, doesn't change the basics of transportation as we know it. Just another step in the long march to automate more and more of the mundane tasks.
    "The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion" -- John Lawton

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    Quote Originally Posted by emh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 1999 White C5 Coupe View Post
    I grew up in the 1950’s, 1960’s & 1970’s - and fondly remember the various auto magazines printing numerous articles (with drawings) of the flying cars that were just around the corner, and would soon be parked in the driveway of most suburban driveways.

    I’m still waiting.
    Flying is the most inefficient form of transportation. Plus imagine getting people to obey 3D traffic rules. Wide-spread use of flying for personal vehicles was never a practical option.

    Autonomous driving, on the other hand, doesn't change the basics of transportation as we know it. Just another step in the long march to automate more and more of the mundane tasks.
    Mass trans is the solution. Buses and trains are the most efficient whether measured in terms of cost, land or energy. Everything else, including autonomous cars is a distraction. China does very well with high speed rail that they don’t need as many airports per capita as America for that reason. Maoism works, but I digress.
    Last edited by Self Reliance; 10-25-2019 at 09:14 AM.
    26 + 6 = 1

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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Quote Originally Posted by Self Reliance View Post
    Mass trans is the solution. Buses and trains are the most efficient whether measured in terms of cost, land or energy. Everything else, including autonomous cars is a distraction. China does very well with high speed rail that they don’t need as many airports per capita as America for that reason. Maoism works, but I digress.
    And it totally cannot work in 80% of this country. Is that difficult to comprehend? I work 44 miles from home, and neither end is in some kind of urban center. Mass transit fails to even approach helping, if it were available. It also has to be HEAVILY subsidized to operate, and I have quite enough taxes paid already. They ARE the most efficient. I wrote a research paper on this probably before you were born (1983), but they can't be applied in most of America.

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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Quote Originally Posted by emh View Post
    Flying is the most inefficient form of transportation. Plus imagine getting people to obey 3D traffic rules. Wide-spread use of flying for personal vehicles was never a practical option.

    Autonomous driving, on the other hand, doesn't change the basics of transportation as we know it. Just another step in the long march to automate more and more of the mundane tasks.
    I think you are wrong and it will become the most practical solution. I find it humorous that you think autonomous ground driving is the answer but not 3-D autonomous flying where there it would be easy to mandate all 3-D is autonomous taking the human variability out of the equation. One of the largest problems with ground autonomous is the human factor. And you cannot wish away 100 million vehicles on the road and just demand everyone upgrade on monday morning. Those human piloted cars are going to be around for a minimum of 20 more years.

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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagon11 View Post
    I think you are wrong and it will become the most practical solution. I find it humorous that you think autonomous ground driving is the answer but not 3-D autonomous flying where there it would be easy to mandate all 3-D is autonomous taking the human variability out of the equation. One of the largest problems with ground autonomous is the human factor. And you cannot wish away 100 million vehicles on the road and just demand everyone upgrade on monday morning. Those human piloted cars are going to be around for a minimum of 20 more years.
    You misunderstood my point (which probably means I didn't communicate it clearly). Setting aside the inefficiency issue, I agree autonomous 3D mobility is likely possible. I just don't think it's possible with human drivers as envisioned in the 50s etc., which is what I was responding to.

    That said, I think the inefficiency makes it a moot point anyway (at least until we invent a more efficient form of propulsion).
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    Re: Peugeot says level 4 autonomous cars would mean a $16,700 price hike

    Quote Originally Posted by Chassis Guy View Post
    And it totally cannot work in 80% of this country. Is that difficult to comprehend? I work 44 miles from home, and neither end is in some kind of urban center. Mass transit fails to even approach helping, if it were available. It also has to be HEAVILY subsidized to operate, and I have quite enough taxes paid already. They ARE the most efficient. I wrote a research paper on this probably before you were born (1983), but they can't be applied in most of America.
    In the 19th century America had 11,000 miles of streetcar tracks, nearly all gone thanks to a conspiracy by GM and SO. Don't tell me it cannot be done or it doesn't work.

    You are right though about low density being a problem and it is an indictment of the car-oriented suburbs post-WW2. The greatest misallocation of resources.

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    Last edited by Self Reliance; 10-25-2019 at 06:50 PM.
    26 + 6 = 1

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