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Thread: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

  1. #46
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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by 377Z View Post
    There's good and bad everything, and implying that all out of warranty German cars are undesireable is the definition of painting with a broad stroke, that's all. No argument that statistically relative to the industry averages that German cars are below average durability, and that it would be better for them if they weren't below average. But it doesn't automatically mean they are all undesireable heaps or that they will have lots of problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
    They are very desirable, and desirability is a big factor in why they sell well despite reliability problems.
    Not to stick up for him, but he never said German cars were not desirable. And on average in most cases a German car will be less reliable then an American or Japanese car. There are exceptions to that rule of course, at times my 3 series was more reliable in certain ways than my Lexus...but as a whole typically German cars are less reliable.

    German vehicles are not known for their quality, and quality surveys that don't take into account how people "feel" about their cars and basically measure short- and long-term quality prove that. German automakers may have had some acute successes (e.g., GLK in 2011 IQS), but overall, their vehicles aren't high quality.

    The conclusion is very simple and clear: German vehicles are not high quality.

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  3. #47
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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Well, I suppose it could come down to how you parse words as to me, "you do not want to own it" speaks to the desireability, but my point really was about the broad stroke specification of "a German car" in the original statement. Anyways I don't think it really matters as I doubt his intent was to be bigoted.

    Heh, I'd argue that German cars are high quality, its just that the industry averages happen to be higher.
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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by 377Z View Post
    Well, I suppose it could come down to how you parse words as to me, "you do not want to own it" speaks to the desireability, but my point really was about the broad stroke specification of "a German car" in the original statement. Anyways I don't think it really matters as I doubt his intent was to be bigoted.

    Heh, I'd argue that German cars are high quality, its just that the industry averages happen to be higher.
    I speak very objectively, I own a BMW myself....and other than Cadillac its the brand that I have owned the most of. I sincerely wish my Range Rover had of been more reliable as I would still own it today. However it won't stop me from buying one in the future. Simply because as I said reliability isn't as important to me and those who buy luxury cars in comparison to other intangible things. If that was the case Lexus would have maybe one or two competitors.

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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    there are things involved that most don't think of.............i would rather have a vette than a porshe why waste all that money on maintenence $3000 to 5000 on a tuneup???? i get the same or almost same(depends on driver)performance in a vette that i do in a porche. ferrari spends most of it's time in the shop??//?. my bimmer really has'nt given me a hard time.......then again i don't drive it as much as i do my nissan. bcause i know wat the cost would and will be

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    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 cawimmer430's Avatar
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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by mercy09 View Post
    It doesn't surprise me that Lexus (and Land Rover) has one of the lowest % of leases. Everybody I know with a Lexus owns the car and keeps it for many years. You also hardly see deals advertised from Lexus.
    Lexus also takes about ten years to bring out a brand new replacement for an existing car. Their facelifts go unnoticed.

    That's not the case with the Germans. Their product life cycles are shorter and their facelifts make an existing car look "new". There's an incentive for people to lease because they want to enjoy the replacement model as soon as it is out because it looks new and fresh.

    And at the end of the day leasing is a good way to introduce people to a brand, get them hooked and maybe eventually they'll buy a car.

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    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 cawimmer430's Avatar
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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by tgagneguam View Post
    German vehicles are not known for their quality, and quality surveys that don't take into account how people "feel" about their cars and basically measure short- and long-term quality prove that. German automakers may have had some acute successes (e.g., GLK in 2011 IQS), but overall, their vehicles aren't high quality.
    I'm going to try and say this in the nicest way possible without trying to attack or insult you.

    This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

    Explain to me how German cars gained their worldwide reputation for engineering, quality, prestige and performance? Explain to me why people lust for these cars? Why are people willing to pay money for these cars? Why - if they are of such ****ty quality as you claim they are.

    The desirability of German automotive products comes from QUALITY. These brands didn't achieve their status and recognition by building poor quality cars.

    I find it funny how you claim that German cars are of poor quality, a country known for its high-speed highways where the QUALITY of the car plays a major role. In fact German cars are developed with speed and stability in mind and this demands the highest quality possible for various reasons including safety, stability etc. The quality has to be good and the quality of the components has to be good.

    My family has driven German cars for decades and we keep coming back. Our cars have been very reliable and pretty much problem-free.

    When there have been issues they have been minor. For example, a loose screw in the engine compartment of our ex-1985 Mercedes 300SE (W126) caused the generator to vibrate and create some noise. This happened at nearly 200,000 km. Wow, such poor quality!

    My dad owns a 1989 Mercedes 500SL (R129) and the only problem it had were fouled spark plugs at around 178,000 km (because it was parked in a damp parking garage for nearly three years) and the foldable roof mechanism needs a tune-up every 50,000 km. Notice I said it needs a "tune-up". That means the technicians firstly check if everything is working well and if the mechanisms are all properly aligned and working within normal parameters. This is a normal wear-and-tear inspection in order to assure that everything works well for another 50,000 km. Wow, such poor quality!

    All our other German cars have been very reliable and have held-up well over the years that we've had them. Audis, BMWs, Mercedes', even a couple of Opels and Volkswagens.




    Quote Originally Posted by tgagneguam View Post
    The conclusion is very simple and clear: German vehicles are not high quality.
    Your conclusion is a joke. A bad one at that.
    Last edited by cawimmer430; 08-27-2011 at 01:57 PM.

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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    I feel any car north of 40k should be leased.

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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by cawimmer430 View Post
    I'm going to try and say this in the nicest way possible without trying to attack or insult you.

    This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

    Explain to me how German cars gained their worldwide reputation for engineering, quality, prestige and performance? Explain to me why people lust for these cars? Why are people willing to pay money for these cars? Why - if they are of such ****ty quality as you claim they are.

    The desirability of German automotive products comes from QUALITY. These brands didn't achieve their status and recognition by building poor quality cars.

    I find it funny how you claim that German cars are of poor quality, a country known for its high-speed highways where the QUALITY of the car plays a major role. In fact German cars are developed with speed and stability in mind and this demands the highest quality possible for various reasons including safety, stability etc. The quality has to be good and the quality of the components has to be good.

    My family has driven German cars for decades and we keep coming back. Our cars have been very reliable and pretty much problem-free.

    When there have been issues they have been minor. For example, a loose screw in the engine compartment of our ex-1985 Mercedes 300SE (W126) caused the generator to vibrate and create some noise. This happened at nearly 200,000 km. Wow, such poor quality!

    My dad owns a 1989 Mercedes 500SL (R129) and the only problem it had were fouled spark plugs at around 178,000 km (because it was parked in a damp parking garage for nearly three years) and the foldable roof mechanism needs a tune-up every 50,000 km. Notice I said it needs a "tune-up". That means the technicians firstly check if everything is working well and if the mechanisms are all properly aligned and working within normal parameters. This is a normal wear-and-tear inspection in order to assure that everything works well for another 50,000 km. Wow, such poor quality!

    All our other German cars have been very reliable and have held-up well over the years that we've had them. Audis, BMWs, Mercedes', even a couple of Opels and Volkswagens.






    Your conclusion is a joke. A bad one at that.
    Quality surveys > anecdotal evidence. Keep in mind the US and Europe (especially Germany) are different in how people perceive brands' quality.

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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
    Quality surveys > anecdotal evidence. Keep in mind the US and Europe (especially Germany) are different in how people perceive brands' quality.
    I can tell you from experience that most people I meet are happy with their European cars. Our quality survey results are different from yours. Quality is also a subjective issue.

    Here a broken cup holder isn't a "reliability/quality issue" like it seems to be in America. Here we drive in our cars, not text-and-talk-and-drink behind the wheel.

    Every brand can produce a lemon or have models that are a bit problematic. Cars are complex machines and things can wear-and-tear and break. Sometimes later, sometimes earlier.


    But that silly statement that "German cars are not quality cars" is just pure sh_t.

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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by cawimmer430 View Post
    I can tell you from experience that most people I meet are happy with their European cars. Our quality survey results are different from yours. Quality is also a subjective issue.

    Here a broken cup holder isn't a "reliability/quality issue" like it seems to be in America. Here we drive in our cars, not text-and-talk-and-drink behind the wheel.

    Every brand can produce a lemon or have models that are a bit problematic. Cars are complex machines and things can wear-and-tear and break. Sometimes later, sometimes earlier.


    But that silly statement that "German cars are not quality cars" is just pure sh_t.
    Quality is relative. All I can tell you is that in NA they do not have a stellar reputation for reliability or long term durability, but most people who lease these cars don't really care. They like them for the design, engineering and prestige.

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    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 cawimmer430's Avatar
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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
    Quality is relative. All I can tell you is that in NA they do not have a stellar reputation for reliability or long term durability, but most people who lease these cars don't really care. They like them for the design, engineering and prestige.
    Long-term durability is also directly related to how well the cars are treated and maintained by their owners. I understand that some basic maintenance is often IGNORED by American owners because the luxury dealerships of these brands are relatively distantly located. And then when something goes wrong the car/brand gets the blame. Nice.

    Most of Europeans sell a lot of powerful cars in the United States. The components of powerful cars are more prone to quicker wear and tear than those of a relatively normal-powered vehicle. Brakes won't last as long for example if the car is driven at higher speeds or in a competitive fashion.

    It's silly to expect a high performance BMW 5er saloon for example to last as long as a no thrills Toyota Corolla. The BMW will most likely have the hell driven out of it because it is a subjectively "fun" car compared to the basic transportation and ultra boring Toyota Corolla. Both are quality cars, but the wear and tear on the BMW will most likely be harder and the consequences will appear earlier.

    This isn't an excuse, but a likely scenario that can explain some issues.

    And I here in Europe there are many older European cars driving around and still in good condition. A buddy of mine has a 1997 Mercedes E200 (W210) with close to 800,000 km on its back. Runs as good as new. The car is used to travel to Eastern Europe where the roads are pretty bad (wear and tear / damage on the suspension on any normal car). Used German cars are especially popular in Eastern Europe because of, you guessed it, DURABILITY.

    The way I see it, most American luxury consumers, especially those of European imports, always want the latest car and don't plan on keeping their cars for long. Thus, certain maintenance might be neglected or the car isn't treated as well as it should be. Just a likely scenario with perhaps some truth to it. Just saying...
    Last edited by cawimmer430; 08-27-2011 at 03:31 PM.

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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Maybe in Europe you guys get different BMW's because flat out fact is, the Europeans are not known for reliability...but even more so than that BMW and MB are two that have had huge quality and reliability issues, with MB just returning to building quality and reliable cars recently. Oh and your lack of US market knowledge speaks volumes, I will give you a slight hint....its called free maintenance....and most BMW's purchased in the last 4-5 years have it.

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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    Maybe in Europe you guys get different BMW's because flat out fact is, the Europeans are not known for reliability
    If these cars were so "unreliable", people wouldn't buy them. Period. The fact that people keep buying them and keep coming back to buy them (or even switch from a "reliable" Japanese brand to a European brand) says a lot.

    And don't give me that excuse about "badge snobbery". Badge loyalty only goes so far. These cars are high quality and the fact that people keep coming back for more proves this.

    Those reliability nightmare horror stories people love to talk about are the exception rather than the rule. And let's be honest: this whole "German cars are unreliable" and "Japanese cars are so reliable" has turned into a stupid "Internet myth". Hell, the only Japanese brands known for quality and reliability have always been Toyota and Honda vaguely followed by Nissan and Mazda. AFAIK Mitsubishi, Subaru, Suzuki, Daihatsu and even Isuzu do not enjoy such a reputation.



    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    ...but even more so than that BMW and MB are two that have had huge quality and reliability issues, with MB just returning to building quality and reliable cars recently.
    They had quality issues in the mid-1990s and early 2000s. That's roughly about 10 years of their 100+ years in existence and it was due to cost-cutting in order to be more competitive. You're telling me that because of those 10 issue-plagued years that German brands have "always" made unreliable and poor quality cars?

    Give me a break.



    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    Oh and your lack of US market knowledge speaks volumes, I will give you a slight hint....its called free maintenance....and most BMW's purchased in the last 4-5 years have it.
    What's your point? That BMW Free Maintenance is provided exclusively because BMWs are so "unreliable"?

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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by cawimmer430 View Post
    If these cars were so "unreliable", people wouldn't buy them. Period. The fact that people keep buying them and keep coming back to buy them (or even switch from a "reliable" Japanese brand to a European brand) says a lot.
    They don't buy them, they lease them. There is no long term commitment involved.

    What your being told though is how North Americans generally perceive German cars. Heck even I wouldn't touch a used Audi, Mercedes or BMW with a 10 foot pole, in that situation it would be Lexus and even Cadillac/Buick I hold to a higher regard. I'm not going to take that risk because of your anecdotal evidence in Germany.
    Last edited by Mr. Burns; 08-28-2011 at 04:19 PM.

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    Re: Most Luxury Cars are Leased: BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti Lead the Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
    They don't buy them, they lease them. There is no long term commitment involved.

    What your being told though is how North Americans generally perceive German cars. Heck even I wouldn't touch a used Audi, Mercedes or BMW with a 10 foot pole, in that situation it would be Lexus and even Cadillac/Buick I hold to a higher regard. I'm not going to take that risk because of your anecdotal evidence in Germany.
    I think what the point of this thread is that German cars are GREAT to drive. I have had the use of a 98 M Roadster and an 02 M3 from work. They were fun to drive! Maintenance costs and repairs are rediculously high. If you are rich who cares spend the money!

    It just makes sense to use a subsidized lease payment and drive new "bling" rather than maintain an out of warranty German car.

    And just for the record:

    The only Toyota I would ever consider owning is an MR2. I drove one while driving the M Roadster. Give the Toyota another 60 HP it would be my choice of the two. All other "Toyopets" have done absolutely nothing for me.
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