If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

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Thread: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

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    If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enth...cid=spartanntp

    October 6, 2020
    James Gilboy

    Ever since investment firm Hindenburg Research sank Nikola Corporation's battleship with scathing accusations of fraud, the once-enshrined auto startup has been in a tailspin. Since the start of September, Nikola has lost its founder, yanked the Badger pickup truck from its business plan, and to manage the bad press stemming from these developments, allegedly plied copyright fraud to silence critics. Nikola's sole remaining hope is its long-awaited fuel-cell semi-truck, which has potentially been branded with a sell-by date by a coming competitor from Toyota.

    In a release issued Tuesday morning, Toyota announced that it plans to develop a hydrogen fuel cell-powered Class 8 semi-truck, placing it in direct competition with Nikola. This truck will be based on the new XL Series chassis from Toyota Group subsidiary Hino, and powered by scaled-up FCEV technologies proven commercially viable by the Toyota Mirai sedan. Toyota pledges to have a working prototype of this Americas-oriented semi ready within nine months, giving Nikola a deadline to prove that it can compete with the legacy automaker.

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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    That could be a monkey wrench....

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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    Niklola better start pushing more trucks downhill.

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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    GM already has hydrogen technology that works and is commercially available on Honda etc..Nikola will be fine.. GM hacks running it too
    Last edited by mbukukanyau; 10-06-2020 at 07:02 PM.

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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    GM already has hydrogen technology that works and is commercially available on Honda etc..Nikola will be fine.. GM hacks running it too
    Can they do fuel cells with LNG? I don't want to drive a Hindenberg

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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    This is the one category of vehicle where Fuel Cell makes the most sense. Light passenger vehicles make less sense, at this point it's either gas or charging.

    The only problem with Hydrogen is that production emits Carbon Dioxide and requires more electrical power to generate than you can get out of it. So it's much harder to make that technology as green and efficient as pure electricity CAN be, depending on your grid's sources. And its certainly a more complex system with very expensive infrastructure barriers. But in situations where towing and range up-time are an issue, this is where Fuel Cell is ultimately better than charging and a way greener than Diesel.
    Last edited by BORG; 10-06-2020 at 10:09 PM.

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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    Quote Originally Posted by BORG View Post
    This is the one category of vehicle where Fuel Cell makes the most sense. Light passenger vehicles make less sense, at this point it's either gas or charging.

    The only problem with Hydrogen is that production emits Carbon Dioxide and requires more electrical power to generate than you can get out of it. So it's much harder to make that technology as green and efficient as pure electricity CAN be, depending on your grid's sources. And its certainly a more complex system with very expensive infrastructure barriers. But in situations where towing and range up-time are an issue, this is where Fuel Cell is ultimately better than charging and a way greener than Diesel.
    ...then again, you could also put your cargo on a freight train instead of one of these trucks. Use the trucks for the last portion of the delivery...and have them be electric, hydrogen, diesel, whatever.
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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Buttons View Post
    Niklola better start pushing more trucks downhill.
    The more I read about the founder, the more of a flim flam artist I think he is. WSJ did a good write up on him last week.

    Quote Originally Posted by BORG View Post
    This is the one category of vehicle where Fuel Cell makes the most sense. Light passenger vehicles make less sense, at this point it's either gas or charging.
    It makes the most sense for "route" day trips. IE: Warehouse -> Store #1 -> Store#2 -> Back to Warehouse. I don't see the infrastructure being built for long haul.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMOwner View Post
    ...then again, you could also put your cargo on a freight train instead of one of these trucks. Use the trucks for the last portion of the delivery...and have them be electric, hydrogen, diesel, whatever.
    That's already how all kinds of things, especially commodities, are already done. However Rail isn't "timely" enough for a lot of things. (IE its slow)
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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    You won't be driving the Hindenburg, more like the Titanic (Full of Water)

    Hydrogen Atom, cannot be destroyed, even after Ignition, it will just mix back with Oxygen and become H2O (Water) again. But the Electrolysis has to occur, right before the Ignition Source. Think Direct Injection.

    The separation of Hydrogen from H2O will require large amounts of electricity, (Think Regenerative Braking and Battery Tech) All things already being worked on.

    The biggest obstacle is Big Oil, but perhaps it is already, secretly being worked on (BP. Oil Spill, Pipeline Conflict, Oil Sands turmoil, Middle East Conflicts)

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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    Quote Originally Posted by InCogKneeToe View Post
    You won't be driving the Hindenburg, more like the Titanic (Full of Water)

    Hydrogen Atom, cannot be destroyed, even after Ignition, it will just mix back with Oxygen and become H2O (Water) again. But the Electrolysis has to occur, right before the Ignition Source. Think Direct Injection.

    The separation of Hydrogen from H2O will require large amounts of electricity, (Think Regenerative Braking and Battery Tech) All things already being worked on.

    The biggest obstacle is Big Oil, but perhaps it is already, secretly being worked on (BP. Oil Spill, Pipeline Conflict, Oil Sands turmoil, Middle East Conflicts)
    If I were Big Oil and had an LNG business, I would be liking this. The LNG is an add-on services to existing service stations. LNG is cheap and domestic. They will be looking to use LNG fuel cells to power large ships. Why not trucks?
    Last edited by Greg Burr; 10-07-2020 at 10:31 AM.

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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burr View Post
    If I were Big Oil and had an LNG business, I would be liking this. The LNG is an add-on services to existing service stations. LNG is cheap and domestic. They will be looking to use LNG fuel cells to power large ships. Why not trucks?
    I am suprised no Oil company has come up with a electric charging do hickey for its locations

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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    Quote Originally Posted by InCogKneeToe View Post
    You won't be driving the Hindenburg, more like the Titanic (Full of Water)

    Hydrogen Atom, cannot be destroyed, even after Ignition, it will just mix back with Oxygen and become H2O (Water) again. But the Electrolysis has to occur, right before the Ignition Source. Think Direct Injection.

    The separation of Hydrogen from H2O will require large amounts of electricity, (Think Regenerative Braking and Battery Tech) All things already being worked on.....
    There's no chance that carrying water helps.

    Yes, the hydrogen is derived from water, but that takes energy, more than the energy you'll get back from using the hydrogen. And if you're doing the electrolysis onboard the vehicle, you already have to have ANOTHER power source (battery?) on board to produce the hydrogen, so why don't you just use THAT power source?
    Last edited by CaptainDan; 10-07-2020 at 01:19 PM.
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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burr View Post
    Can they do fuel cells with LNG? I don't want to drive a Hindenberg
    Then don't paint your truck with rocket fuel. (THAT's what you saw burning on that infamous Hindenburg video)

    By the way, LNG is flammable too. So is gasoline.
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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainDan View Post
    Then don't paint your truck with rocket fuel. (THAT's what you saw burning on that infamous Hindenburg video)

    By the way, LNG is flammable too. So is gasoline.
    All our energy, except for solar, involves breaking chemical bonds, mostly by burning something.

    Our city only allows us to store 5 gallons of gas for our home generators, but we can have all the propane that we want. For safety reasons. LNG is the safest imho
    Last edited by Greg Burr; 10-07-2020 at 02:53 PM.

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    Re: If It Works, Toyota's Fuel Cell Semi-Truck Could Doom the Startups

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burr View Post
    All our energy, except for solar, involves breaking chemical bonds, mostly by burning something.

    Our city only allows us to store 5 gallons of gas for our home generators, but we can have all the propane that we want. For safety reasons. LNG is the safest imho
    Wind power doesn't involve chemical bonds or burning

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