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Ford knew Focus, Fiesta models had flawed transmission, sold them anyway

8K views 85 replies 38 participants last post by  rougeriver 
#1 ·
Ford knew Focus, Fiesta models had flawed transmission, sold them anyway
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/07/11/ford-focus-fiesta-transmission-defect/1701433001/
July 11, 2019
Phoebe Wall Howard

Ford Motor Co. knowingly launched two low-priced, fuel-efficient cars with defective transmissions and continued selling the troubled Focus and Fiesta despite thousands of complaints and an avalanche of repairs, a Free Press investigation found.

The cars, many of which randomly lose power on freeways and have unexpectedly bolted into intersections, were put on sale in 2010-11 as the nation emerged from the Great Recession. At least 1.5 million remain on the road and continue to torment their owners — and Ford.

The automaker pushed past company lawyers’ early safety questions and a veteran development engineer’s warning that the cars weren’t roadworthy, internal emails and documents show. Ford then declined, after the depth of the problem was obvious, to make an expensive change in the transmission technology.

Instead, the company kept trying to find a fix for the faulty transmission for five years while complaints and costs piled up. In the interim, Ford officials prepared talking points for dealers to tell customers that the cars operated normally when, in fact, internal documents are peppered with safety concerns and descriptions of the defects.

The automaker faces thousands of angry customers, including former loyalists who say they will never buy another Ford; hundreds of millions in repair costs, many times without actually fixing the cars; and litigation so serious the company this spring warned investors of the financial threat posed by defects in what Ford called its DPS6 transmission.

Apart from the legal risks, “Total quality related spending for DPS6 could reach $3 billion,” read a 2016 internal report that projected the costs through 2020.

In a statement Wednesday to the Free Press, Ford said conversations about "challenges common to innovative new technology" were "normal exchanges." It said many customers were unaccustomed to the feel of the transmission and acknowledged that, "After the new transmission was on the road, other problems developed. We acted quickly and determinedly to investigate the problems. ... While we eventually resolved the quality issues, the solutions were more complex and took longer than we expected. We regret the inconvenience and frustration that caused some consumers." It acknowledged discussion of switching to a different transmission and said it made choices based on what it thought "best for customers."

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#2 ·
Really long read, but interesting. Fraud stories always pique my interest, especially what drives otherwise good people to do wrong.

I wonder if issues like these are why GM has stayed away from such transmissions.

Somewhere in the article it mentions that VW had reported a few issues. I'd put money on it that VW had a lot of issues and covered it up based on what the VW emissions scandal tells us about their corporate culture.
 
#7 ·
Really long read, but interesting.

I wonder if issues like these are why GM has stayed away from such transmissions.

Somewhere in the article it mentions that VW had reported a few issues. I'd put money on it that VW had a lot of issues and covered it up based on what the VW emissions scandal tells us about their corporate culture.
I recall VW in Australia having lawsuits filed against them over cars stalling OR taking off into traffic and someone's daughter was killed or some other "headline" event
 
#3 ·
I remember reading at the time when major problems were being reported that some were saying it was because they were a dry clutch setup vs a wet clutch setup and that's why they felt so different vs their euro counterparts. Not sure how true that is or not but makes you wonder why they didn't just swap over to what the euro Fords were using for a transmissions instead if that's the case.

Either way this was a poor move on Ford's part. They should have just stuck with a normal 6 speed auto.
 
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#5 ·
Ford has offered Compensation to purchasers by way of "Trade in Cash" of up to $2000, extra. But that offer went away when the Class Action Lawsuit went through.

The "Getrag" 6 DC has been an issue, Jerky, Oil Leaks, Clutch wear. But there wasn't a choice, (other than a Manual, or a 6 Speed Auto with the 1.0L)
 
#10 · (Edited)
As a Ford fan,
The most damning thing for Ford was that its 2015 Global refresh of Focus included the 1.5 EB /6F auto trans while North America kept selling the 2.0 DI/Powershift auto....they had the solution four years ago but refused to budge in North America.

This is all on Mark Fields and to a degree Alan Mulally for cheaping out on customers and just burying their head in the sand. No wonder Fields was fighting not to testify... I wonder how long his nose is gonna grow on the stand...I wonder if he tried to pin it all on Joe Hinrichs and fire him..

IMO, this was Ford executing a massive end run around lemon laws, the courts need to send a big message on doing that. Personally, I hope they rub Ford's nose in it and order Ford to to buy back every one of them and settle with customers, the trans can't be fixed and should be regarded as a massive lemon. The fact that Ford has been dragged to litigation shows just how ARROGANT and UNCARING Ford is on this matter when they know damned well know the customer was right.

Someone at Ford decided that it was cheaper to tough this out and keep customers angry. it's time the court showed Ford just hwo wrong it was by giving them a bill with lots and lots of zeros.

Also, every other Ford buyer has it within theeir power to show Ford their displeasure, i'm not saying don't buy Ford but, you could delay your purchase for 6 or 12 months or whenever this is settled and tell the dealer that.
That would send Ford an even bigger message
 
#15 ·
As a Ford fan,
The most damning thing for Ford was that its 2015 Global refresh of Focus included the 1.5 EB /6F auto trans while North America kept selling the 2.0 DI/Powershift auto....they had the solution four years ago but refused to budge in North America.

This is all on Mark Fields and to a degree Alan Mulally for cheaping out on customers and just burying their head in the sand. No wonder Fields was fighting not to testify... I wonder how long his nose is gonna grow on the stand...I wonder if he tried to pin it all on Joe Hinrichs and fire him..

IMO, this was Ford executing a massive end run around lemon laws, the courts need to send a big message on doing that. Personally, I hope they rub Ford's nose in it and order Ford to to buy back every one of them and settle with customers, the trans can't be fixed and should be regarded as a massive lemon. The fact that Ford has been dragged to litigation shows just how ARROGANT and UNCARING Ford is on this matter whan they know damned well
It's Pinto 2.0
 
#12 ·
looked around a bit, so it seems due to 1 individual, ford screwed up good:

"A month before the Focus went to dealers, Craig Renneker, then acting director of transmission and driveline engineering, emailed Richard Bonifas, a customer service manager at the Michigan Assembly Plant in Wayne, where the cars were being built.

“The 2012 Focus vehicles equipped with the DPS6 transmission may experience a shudder/shake on start up or when slowing to a stop … ship the vehicles to the dealers with the level of shudder we currently have and continue our efforts towards a permanent resolution ASAP,” Renneker wrote on Feb. 21, 2011. “That’s just my opinion and it’s not a popular one.”

Now he is no longer at Ford, but why would you hire somebody like him in a such a high position:

Craig Renneker
Vice President- Driveline Product Engineering
AAM - American Axle & Manufacturing
 
#14 ·
My take was a lot of Ford employees could have "blown the whistle", but didn't. Though I do agree the highest ranking person in the know should take it on the chin.

I do and don't understand the lower level employee's point of view. I do get how the higher levels wave their magic wands and expect the lower levels to exclusively work around the clock to resolve a problem but offer no assistance to help get day to day stuff done. That can run you into the ground quickly.

But at the same token, people are getting hurt and could die. I don't want that on my conscience. And to a lesser extent, those poor people with cars that are basically worthless - that is a very hard and painful financial hit to take if you aren't making a lot of money - I don't want that on my conscience either.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Fiesta is less prone to issues with this transmission than Focus, although people still didn't like the way they drove. But Ford was never able to fix the Focus because of the higher torque from the 2.0L engine. The Focus fails to meet the 135,000 mile lifetime minimum but the Fiesta does. And yes, Ford has LONG been aware that this transmission fails to meet their own internal oversight, but they made the wrong decisions over and over again to keep them rolling off the assembly line anyway. They worked hard to fix the transmission, but ultimately needed a major redesign that they didn't want to pay for. It's absolutely disastrous for their customers and Ford seems content to just keep 'fixing' them under warranty to skate by. Ultimately it's probably cheaper to battle this on a case by case basis than to do the right thing for those customers and just buy them back. I don't believe this qualifies as a safety issue, but it shouldn't have to qualify as a safety issue to motivate intervention. The Automakers just do such an amazing job demonstrating why they need more government oversight. There certainly needs to be severe consequences to disincentivize this sort of corporate disfunction, but ultimately there never is so this will happen again over and over.
 
#31 ·
Of course Ford fixes them and count the days until the warranty is out so they can wash their hands of the problem. They perfected this move with the 6.0 and 6.4 diesel engines. The Focus fiasco was not their first rodeo when it comes to selling a substandard product, take on Billions in costs to ultimately push the problem onto the customers that bought them.
 
#21 ·
Ford quality supervisor Johann Kirchhoffer wrote in an email on June 27, 2008, that stalling “alone is not hazardous.”
I remember those pre cataytic converter days in the early 70's when they were trying to meet emissions standards by running the carburetor really lean. Of course, that made it prone to stalling, making it scary when you pulled out into an opening in traffic.
 
#67 ·
Actually the motors were solid, you can get big miles out of them. The problem was the lower intake manifold gaskets that failed. Much of the failure was due to the Dexcool coolant. We had many Impalas on the fleet with these engines and after the intakes were done they were usually 100% trouble free.

In the long list of Ford engine blunders one that's come to light that is really troubling. The water pumps on the 3.5 V6's, they leak internally. The owner will likely never know he has a leaking H2O pump until the engine is destroyed. It's also a solid 12hr job to replace. Yay!
When you change the subject to GM and infer that we can't discuss Ford's issue because GM has done equally crappy stuff, you are giving Ford a pass.
Not a "Pass" by any means.

However, Ford has been actively attempting to fix the 6DSP. Seals, New Clutch Packs (often many), Extended Warranties, Software, Money if traded in on another Ford vehicle. Will they Continue after a Class Action Law Suit? Why would they?

It has never to "Me" seem like Ford has "Ignored" this issue. They certainly have never tried to cover it up, and continued to sell New Foceyes, with the Latest Fixes included.

Safety, has never been the issue, Drivability Concerns yes, Inconvenience YES, but I haven't seen any "Fail" to a point where it is Unsafe to Drive.
 
#25 ·
#28 ·
The headline sure is sensational; huh!? Doesn't every manufacturer know EVERY car they sell is "flawed"?

If a car is released, and it's not perfect, then it's "flawed" right?

Ford did have a pretty coherent and detailed response, of course it is their job to make it sound less bad, one of the stories I was reading about it on Freep.com this morning had some graphs, appears they have been scrubbed............ The graphs illustrated "how small" in the total scope of units sold the problem was, and also how little it was after that first model-year.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/c...cus-fiesta-response-investigation/1693451001/


I think most of the data in those graphs is below:

"Of a remarkable 2,681 complaints about the 2012 Focus filed with the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, at least 1,130 are related to the dual-clutch transmission that is the target of massive litigation and that Ford knew was flawed before the car went on sale.

In investigating Ford’s decisions surrounding the 2012-16 Focus and 2011-16 Fiesta with the DPS6 transmission, the Free Press analyzed the car owners’ complaints to NHTSA. We found a cumulative 4,377 such reports across the model years, with the 2012 Focus accounting for just over a quarter of the total."


The transmission is different, the transmission did work/feel differently, but Ford was selling almost 300,000 of those things a year back then.

I had a rental with one of these transmissions, back in 2012.............. in 2017 I bought a Cruze.

;)
 
#36 ·
We had a 99 Alero with the 3.4L that I gave to my son and had it for a total of 18 years. I also didn't know about the engine problem. The Alero was a piece of junk, but all of the problems fell into the category of "body hardware". Squeaks, rattles, wind noise that got worse and worse. Three window regulators failed. The sideview mirrors fell off. At the end, the driver's door wouldn't open from the outside, so you had to work your way over from the passenger side. But the engine, no problem. :)
 
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#37 · (Edited)
I've driven Fiesta and Focus and I've actually really enjoyed driving them, but they were years after the original launch. I think the behavior of the transmission was improved significantly from the first couple years, but the durability issues are another matter. I really have no idea how well they hold up now since the only complaints I see come from the pre 2015 models. The only thing I can say about their behavior is that they only really show their quirkiness when you're slowing to a stop or accelerating from stop or low speeds. There tends to be something similar to a manual shudder, but it's relatively minor. I don't think most people who buy them today or in recent years would really notice anything unusual. CVTs tend to feel far more unnerving to me, even if I also think those have improved significantly.

But you would be shocked by how weirdly people drive cars. Ford does research on this as well and I've certainly been a passenger in many cars and wondered where the hell people learn to drive. The weirdest driving behavior to me are people who surge drive, essentially step hard on the accelerator and coast. There are variations of this driving style, but that is AWFUL for the car's transmission, and that type of driver would have WAY more problems with this type of transmission if they aren't use to them. It's also a driving behavior unique to Automatic drivers who have never driven a manual and don't appreciate how a transmission works. But that's obviously not something we can assume or verify. And Ford isn't going to say "You're driving it wrong". But what may have happened is that Ford conflated complaints from the user experience with genuine quality issues. So they weren't able to determine what was a failure and what was just expected behavior.

And ultimately, I really think this relates back to OneFord and the desire to share costs and designs even if they didn't align well with the local markets.
 
#39 ·
Funny story when I was in my teens. The pastor of my church gave my mother and I a ride somewhere. He was probably in his 60's. I just remember thinking get me out of this ride. He'd floor it, then coast, floor it, coast. I never knew it was called surge driving, and I have never in 40 years seen anyone do it to the extent the pastor did. I was scared.
 
#43 ·
Sorry to drop a bomb and derail the thread gents...point I was trying to make was that all automakers are very much aware of ish that leaves the line with pre existing ticking time bombs. Some eventually correct them, some don't.

In the case of the 3.1s/3.4s it was a known issue that left the line for years and GM did nothing. I bought a low mileage CPO '01 Alero GLS in '02 and mine went tits up at 41k and again at 63k. The first repair was done at a GM dealership and replaced w the same failing part which caused a second failure. I guess I remember this most because I was just a lousy E3 at the time and it seemed that everytime I got some extra $$$ the damn thing would break. To those that claim to have had experience with one or a few that claim they didn't break, I call dumb luck, unicorns or whatevs....everyone i knew with one of these motors had the LMI failure, a 97 Monte Carlo 3.1 (friend from HS) 3 Aleros 3.4s(me, aunt, and a dude who told me mine was going to fail after I brought it home for the first time) and one Impala 3.4 (coworker). In my experience it was a 100% fail rate and in my case multiple failures. Did GM offer me an extended warranty as someone claimed? Nope (prob because mine was pre owned)but they did offer up another failed part for me to spend another whole paycheck on.

Hell my 05 Maxima suffered a catastrophic failure due to a known defect....someone decided that plastic was a perfect material for a timing chain tensioner.

Like I said everyone does it so dont go out of your way to trash a brand in an effort to put GM on a pedestal.
 
#44 ·
So what you are saying is Ford deserves a pass because GM defrauded their customers (and worse)? Why don't you search a few years back on GMI and see how big of a pass GMI gave GM for the ignition scandal. I'll save you some time - there numerous threads of GM being trashed, and GM deserved it.

Ford deserves flack for what they did, just like GM did. And this thread is pretty tame (with a lot less posts) next to what GM got. People are getting hurt and so far Ford is lucky no one was killed.
 
#53 ·
Ford quality supervisor Johann Kirchhoffer wrote in an email on June 27, 2008, that stalling “alone is not hazardous.”
Wow, how the industry forgets.
GM had a massive campaign to fix the 1986/87 3.0L & 3.8L engines due to stalling and it was brought on because stalling at speed in traffic IS a safety issue!

Now about those LIM gaskets that GM sold so many of....lets not forget the UIM on the 3800 Series II that was never addressed.
Lets get a little more current, 1.4L water pumps, intake manifold and valve cover failures just to start.
 
#59 ·
11 Things You Need to Know about Ford & GM’s 10-Speed Transmission
by JASON COOK on JANUARY 6, 2019

1. Ratio Spread
Despite its relatively wide spread between 1st and 10th gear, the overall span for the 10-speed transmission is hardly the widest out there. At 7.384, it was determined (through extensive simulations) that there was no real benefit to widening the span to 7.4 or greater. In addition, the decision to limit the span ensured that top gear was more easily sustainable during highway driving sessions.

2. Ratio Closeness and Size of Gear Steps
With a wide ratio spread engineered with practicality in mind, the 10-speed transmission offers a modest 20% drop in RPM while shifting. When compared to the 25% drop seen in ZF eight-speeds, this is impressive, as it maintains close-to-peak power during full-throttle acceleration. In addition, it ensures smoother shift transitions (and better all-over operation) in towing scenarios, a primary concern for those behind the wheel.

3. Closeness of 8th, 9th and 10th
Operating as overdrive gears, the last three gears serve to improve acceleration, fuel economy and towing performance. Respectively, the ratios for each are .854 (8th) .689 (9th) and .636 (10th). As mentioned above, 10th gear is designed with highway speeds in mind, but the closeness of ratios allows for smooth 10-9 downshift when required. In fact, smooth might be an understatement as Ford’s intention was to make it ‘nearly imperceptible’.

4. Ease of Shifting
Shifting of the 10-speed transmission is facilitated by six clutches, engaging and disengaging in (dual-clutch) pairings. To prevent any decrease in efficiency, shifts do not require unlocking of the torque converter. And in contrast to conventional two-piece designs, its clutches are regulated by integrated solenoid valves, offering a quicker response. The transmission also offers quicker fill times, with the reduction in hydraulic passage lengths. Overall, this allows for a smooth launch and climb through the gears, as well as downshifting (as needed) without any sense of jarring interruption.

7 more at link.

https://www.autoinfluence.com/11-things-you-need-to-know-about-ford-gms-10-speed-transmission/
 
#61 ·
Eh... IMO GM kind of used early Cruze diesel owners as guinea pigs.
There have been a LOT of sensor issues with them. I have a 10 year warranty on at least one and on my DEF tank.

I haven't had any issues at all outside of recalls, which aren't issues. Best economy car on the market, IMO.
But mine was a very late build, Gen 1 car, which has a lot to do it. I do not like the gutless 1.6 diesel at all.
 
#71 ·
In other news Hell is hot, and the North Pole is quite frigid. There is no way that such a debacle could have accidentally been developed it takes purpose to engineer this level of absolute refuse. Also the reason that my current daily driver with an 8 speed DCT. That also features an industry first torque converter is under a warranty made of solid gold bullion despite it being built by a brand known for reliability.
 
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#72 ·
ILX? I liked those a lot, the 2.4 + 8A DCT + TC was a nice setup.
 
#75 ·
A few years ago I looked into buying a used Focus. I test drove four cars on a lot and each one had a different amount of clutch slip. One was barely perceptible and the in other the engine could rev a few thousand rpm without the car changing speed and almost had us walk back to the lot.

As far as I can tell from my own online research the Getrag DCT problems are primarily the result of thermal stress. The clutches overheat and glaze over, resulting in slip. Since the TCM is located on the transmission, it is also damaged by the overheating. It appears that the problem is worst for those who do a lot of stop and go driving, which would heat up the transmission without sufficient airflow to cool it.

Just my observations, there could be much more going on. But I wouldn't hesitate to buy a wet DCT like those found in everything from GTIs to Porsches and soon Corvettes.
 
#77 ·
Ford, and Getrag used the correct design for the relatively paltry levels of torque. Even VW uses dry clutch DCTS for its economy car offerings. The issue is the fact that they had an incessant desire due to fear of the consumer for the transmission to shift like an automatic.

The slow shifts, and the slipping of the clutches to achieve that leads to clutch wear that is accelerated, and detrimental. Ford tried many times with revised TCU calibrations to right some of their wrongs but by then it was far too late as many of the DCTs had extensive clutch wear.

One of the Focuses that i drove had a transmission replacement needed at just over 8,000 miles. Drive a DCT done right like the really good Acura or VW DCT's , and you begin to understand that the pronounced shifts are part of the DCT experience, and needed.
 
#79 ·
That has never been how it works at the Big 3. Pray tell do you remember the Pinto debacle? The bean counters intervened, and decided if they could perhaps keep the fiery corpses to a minimum they could move forward without fixing a deadly design flaw. Remember many of the bean counters ARE in fact controlling management.
 
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