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Thread: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

  1. #91
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    I don't recall anyone claiming Pontiac was murdered due to common GM parts. That discussion happened five or ten years ago.



    Funny about '90 Lumina Euros, eh? My wife had the full zoot optioned-to-the-max model. It had been all over the country and she drove it east when she was transferred. Her car was hit two or three times and had developed numerous problems. The most obvious was the dashboard was cracked like parched earth in August.

    She replaced her Lumina with a purple Intrepid and loved it. Replaced it unfortunately with her middle aged crazy car a '99 Sebring LXi IIRC. Rutt roe! That car was NOT an Intrepid or Concorde, it developed all sorts of issues including a sun roof that opened by itself on the interstate in the summer and no way to get it down. The seats hurt her back, there were numerous issues. One reason I say Chrysler should have kept the LH cars along with the LX, the Sebring and its Dodge cousin were not nearly as reliable as the big cars.

    What's that all got to do with the Pontiac Died thread? Just that customers come back when they get cars they like, and they're treated halfway humanely by the dealerships.


    When I shopped Chevys in the '90s, and I shopped lots of dealerships, the Chevy dealers were the absolute worst. Just dumb as low-IQ rocks and as useless as a government bureaucrat.
    Every sales guy was a grey half-dead 50-year-old home boy who wanted sticker price--"Hey, that's the price on the window, right?"-- and didn't know anything about anything other than perhaps what brand of gum he was chewing, or want to talk about anything.

    I don't know if one of those idiots could have GIVEN me a car, they were such schlubs. My Chrysler-Dodge guy was super cool, always on top of his game.

    That is how you move metal.

    Months after we bought our new 1990 Lumina Euro (Torch red with a light gray interior), the dashboard top pad began to curl and split. The dealer replaced it under warranty.

    After the pad replacement, we received a “satisfaction campaign” notice in the mail regarding the dash pad curling and splitting, with instructions on how to have it replaced at the dealer. I was amazed that a company like GM could not build a car without having the dash pad deteriorate so quickly.

    To this day, the service we received (customer pay and warranty) from the Dodge dealership where we bought the 1996 & 1998 Intrepid was far superior to any GM or Ford service department

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Bury it in 20 years of hideous body cladding. GM should be publicly humiliated for that mess! BK didn't do nearly enough. Make Mary drive an 87 Grand Am for a month. Yeah, smartest people in the biz... OK, you don't get out much, do ya?

    Could you PURPOSELY destroy so much brand equity that fast if it was your main objective? No, and Oldsmobile was even worse and far faster. Oh, yes, it takes a village alright, an entire village of ignoramuses with their golden parachutes... The dumbest of the dumb. Too ignorant to even possess the slightest situational awareness.

    And, this is still alive and well at GM today. Just pay attention to the details and it's very visible... Just being on board a larger ship guarantees you nothing. There is a complete and total lack of situational awareness still. They are in their bubble, where no one wants cars that people can drive. Yeah. Attention, CLIFF dead ahead!

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Buick Chynnaaahhh! Sales:

    Buick
    All Models
    Market
    Share
    2018 1.057.452 4,56%
    2017 1.223.517 5,05%
    2016 1.229.804 5,21%
    2015 1.065.452 5,28% Million
    2014 917.017 4,98%
    2013 799.213 4,90%
    2012 679.725 5,14%
    2011 629.785 5,13%
    2010 531.973 4,74% Half million
    2009 436.311 5,28%
    2008 259.290 4,68%
    2007 332.399 6,29%
    2006 304.229 7,24%
    2005 248.401 7,72% Quarter million
    2004 194.214 7,89%
    2003 149.509 6,98%

    US-America Sales:
    Buick
    All Models
    Market
    Share
    2018 206.863 1,19%
    2017 219.231 1,27%
    2016 229.631 1,31%
    2015 223.055 1,28%
    2014 228.963 1,39%
    2013 205.509 1,32%
    2012 180.408 1,24%
    2011 177.633 1,39%
    2010 155.389 1,34%
    2009 102.306 0,98%
    2008 137.197 1,04%
    2007 185.791 1,15%
    2006 240.657 1,45%
    2005 282.288 1,66%
    2004 309.639 1,83%
    2003 336.788 2,02%
    2002 432.017 2,60%
    2001 405.678 2,40%
    2000 339.445 2,00%
    1999 445.611 2,60%
    1998 398.156 2,60%
    1997 438.064 2,90%
    1996 427.350 2,80%
    http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/buick/
    Last edited by Neanderthal; 04-30-2019 at 06:47 PM.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by sdotjeezy View Post
    Since you no givie a reply...I'll show you what killed Pontiac:







    These gems come courtesy of your "excitement" division.
    There was never a time in Pontiac history when they didn't sell some ordinary cars like these. It was a full-line automaker. They sold some fun, desirable stuff. And they sold a lot of workaday vehicles. This was nothing unusual. Outside of that awful G3, the others weren't terrible cars and did well as Chevys. The G6 had a decent degree of success for Pontiac.

    I'm not saying that these were great cars, but their existence didn't kill Pontiac. There wasn't enough good models being sold around them. The G8 was a great car that lost money because it was shipped in from Australia. The Solstice was a nice roadster that lost tons per unit, despite being the best-selling car in its class; chalk that up to the unsustainable labor deals of that time. They needed a Firebird or a GTO. The needed a G8 that made money, which should have been a domestically produced Grand Prix, preferably with RWD. And maybe sometimes names are overrated, but the G6 should have been called a Grand Am and the G5 a Sunbird.
    Last edited by ksr; 04-30-2019 at 06:46 PM.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by ryannel2003 View Post
    Someone with inside news on Allpar said FCA pushed the redesign back a few more years because they are still making so much money on the cars.
    I call Bull****.

    If they're making so much on them, then they'd bring new models sooner rather than later.

    It's because they don't want to spend the huge amount of money necessary to bring new models to market. What will the reason be when sales of the current cars start to melt down from sheer boredom? A platform that old can be "updated" only so many times. Ask Ford about Crown Victoria/Marquis/Town Car.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    She replaced her Lumina with a purple Intrepid and loved it. Replaced it unfortunately with her middle aged crazy car a '99 Sebring LXi IIRC. Rutt roe! That car was NOT an Intrepid or Concorde, it developed all sorts of issues including a sun roof that opened by itself on the interstate in the summer and no way to get it down. The seats hurt her back, there were numerous issues. One reason I say Chrysler should have kept the LH cars along with the LX, the Sebring and its Dodge cousin were not nearly as reliable as the big cars.
    There's the difference: the LH cars were all Chrysler built/designed/engineered. The Sebring/Avenger were Diamond Star cars with Mitsu influence & engineering.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdotjeezy View Post
    Truth be told...GM should just pare down to just Chevy and Cadillac. A car-less Buick is pointless and redundant if Cadillac is going to chase after entry level lux sales. GMC....well without a Buick to augment the showroom, what'll be the point of having standalone GMC dealers?
    Since most, if not all, of GM's US dealers carry all 4 brands, GM could eliminate another brand for the sake of the corporation. But, if GM had to do that, I'd see it as a sign of another apocalypse. In another angle, GM could do what FCA did & not Ford. Ford & Chevy have a car & truck lineup. FCA pulled the trucks from Dodge to make Ram, where GM already has GMC available in order to push that "fastest growing brand in America" title & pull Chevy trucks. More importantly, pull those Silverado styling mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdotjeezy View Post
    Since you no givie a reply...I'll show you what killed Pontiac:




    These gems come courtesy of your "excitement" division.
    I counter your argument by what might have been.





    The Torrent was set to get much better in Gen 2. When Pontiac got shut down, it became a GMC Terrain. The TransSport wasn't really something to get "excited" about, but the Thunder concept shows that GM knew that it could appeal to the fun-loving crowd. And if the Rageous had become the 5th gen Firebird....
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by ksr View Post
    There was never a time in Pontiac history when they didn't sell some ordinary cars like these. It was a full-line automaker. They sold some fun, desirable stuff. And they sold a lot of workaday vehicles. This was nothing unusual. Outside of that awful G3, the others weren't terrible cars and did well as Chevys. The G6 had a decent degree of success for Pontiac.

    I'm not saying that these were great cars, but their existence didn't kill Pontiac. There wasn't enough good models being sold around them. The G8 was a great car that lost money because it was shipped in from Australia. The Solstice was a nice roadster that lost tons per unit, despite being the best-selling car in its class; chalk that up to the unsustainable labor deals of that time. They needed a Firebird or a GTO. The needed a G8 that made money, which should have been a domestically produced Grand Prix, preferably with RWD. And maybe sometimes names are overrated, but the G6 should have been called a Grand Am and the G5 a Sunbird.
    Sorry to burst some people's bubbles, but the G6 was a decent, albeit not totally refined, offering from GM...and the only Epsilon coupe. When I was forced to replace my 2003 Grand Am, there were not many comparable choices on the market. I was reluctant at first to purchase the G6 because of it's cheap, "plastic-covered cardboard" interior, but I've grown to love it and enjoy driving my GXP. It has more than enough power with it's 3.6 V6, good looks, even with it's beaver-tooth grill and NO whale tail, and handles decently. It actually feels roomier inside than my Grand Am and answered one of my only complaints I had about the Grand Am - not enough power (175hp vs 252hp). I just wish it had a few modern options, like bluetooth and a hands-free calling button on the steering wheel, which was a very late offering on the 2009.5 G6. I still see a lot of G6s driving around in my area, including many coupes and convertibles!
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    As much as it makes sense to get rid of GMC because it's a Chevy rebadge, it's hard to deny the enormous sales and profits generated by the division because of the full-sizers. I think that's what largely props up Buick going forward, but at some point they have to decide if status quo is the best they can do here. I still think GMC posses both a conundrum and opportunity for GM. Right now it looks like GM is just missing out on an opportunity to challenge Jeep. Nevermind GMC can still sell more crossovers alongside creating a range of "Off-Road Imaged" utilities. But at what point is GMC taking away an opportunity for Chevy to thrive? GM seems kinda stuck on cannibalizing itself or just doing nothing but badge engineering Chevys. I certainly think Chevy could be doing much better with a move away from commodity blandness. They should be treated as the GM flagship brand, not the baseline for their other brands.
    Last edited by BORG; 04-30-2019 at 08:01 PM.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by rockyspaw View Post
    Sorry to burst some people's bubbles, but the G6 was a decent, albeit not totally refined, offering from GM...and the only Epsilon coupe. When I was forced to replace my 2003 Grand Am, there were not many comparable choices on the market. I was reluctant at first to purchase the G6 because of it's cheap, "plastic-covered cardboard" interior, but I've grown to love it and enjoy driving my GXP. It has more than enough power with it's 3.6 V6, good looks, even with it's beaver-tooth grill and NO whale tail, and handles decently. It actually feels roomier inside than my Grand Am and answered one of my only complaints I had about the Grand Am - not enough power (175hp vs 252hp). I just wish it had a few modern options, like bluetooth and a hands-free calling button on the steering wheel, which was a very late offering on the 2009.5 G6. I still see a lot of G6s driving around in my area, including many coupes and convertibles!
    Never had one myself, but I liked the G6. I thought it was criticized far more than it deserved. I was impressed with the interior room and ride of my sister's sedan. Two of her sons made the G6 coupe their first cars after college. Today, GM lacks a car with that sort of appeal to young drivers.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    I drove a 3.9 HV V6, six speed, G6 coupe. What a fun, torquey, package. Only Pontiac got that combo with a stick. Somehow, cool products kept getting funneled into Pontiac, and yet those running the company were completely clueless on what they were and how to market them.
    Last edited by Z284ever; 04-30-2019 at 09:04 PM.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by megeebee View Post
    I call Bull****.

    If they're making so much on them, then they'd bring new models sooner rather than later.

    It's because they don't want to spend the huge amount of money necessary to bring new models to market. What will the reason be when sales of the current cars start to melt down from sheer boredom? A platform that old can be "updated" only so many times. Ask Ford about Crown Victoria/Marquis/Town Car.
    I call BS on your BS call, why would they change the platform if it's still getting the job done and adding to the collective bottom line. Maybe...just maybe FCA sees the writing on the wall w/ ICE powered cars as they are today and are waiting to see where the market goes next before throwing down on a new platform just to say they have a new platform. Besides...the only complaints of it being too old/fat are from outsiders who weren't going to purchase an LX anyway. Also, none of the old Fords were exciting...all three of those were old floaty couches on wheels that didn't receive too much in terms of updates.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoStopN View Post
    There's the difference: the LH cars were all Chrysler built/designed/engineered. The Sebring/Avenger were Diamond Star cars with Mitsu influence & engineering.

    Since most, if not all, of GM's US dealers carry all 4 brands, GM could eliminate another brand for the sake of the corporation. But, if GM had to do that, I'd see it as a sign of another apocalypse. In another angle, GM could do what FCA did & not Ford. Ford & Chevy have a car & truck lineup. FCA pulled the trucks from Dodge to make Ram, where GM already has GMC available in order to push that "fastest growing brand in America" title & pull Chevy trucks. More importantly, pull those Silverado styling mistakes.



    I counter your argument by what might have been.





    The Torrent was set to get much better in Gen 2. When Pontiac got shut down, it became a GMC Terrain. The TransSport wasn't really something to get "excited" about, but the Thunder concept shows that GM knew that it could appeal to the fun-loving crowd. And if the Rageous had become the 5th gen Firebird....
    From what I see most GM dealers are either full Chevrolet, full Cadillac or B-GMC...I visited an all in one-er not too long ago, but IMO those are few and far between. Besides...Nixing the tweener marques in the US gives both Chevy and Cadillac the flexibility to be true market contenders/leaders in their segments. Like it was mentioned, Chevy needs to move away from their path to becoming rolling appliances...leave that ish to Toyota because they do it better, Build the 3 row Blazer, kill the Mehverse, and fix the Equinox.

    IMO...both if those Pontiac concepts look terrible, something out of an late 80s/early 90s SciFi flick...This is what comes to mind when I see the Rageous:

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by ksr View Post
    There was never a time in Pontiac history when they didn't sell some ordinary cars like these. It was a full-line automaker. They sold some fun, desirable stuff. And they sold a lot of workaday vehicles. This was nothing unusual. Outside of that awful G3, the others weren't terrible cars and did well as Chevys. The G6 had a decent degree of success for Pontiac.

    I'm not saying that these were great cars, but their existence didn't kill Pontiac. There wasn't enough good models being sold around them. The G8 was a great car that lost money because it was shipped in from Australia. The Solstice was a nice roadster that lost tons per unit, despite being the best-selling car in its class; chalk that up to the unsustainable labor deals of that time. They needed a Firebird or a GTO. The needed a G8 that made money, which should have been a domestically produced Grand Prix, preferably with RWD. And maybe sometimes names are overrated, but the G6 should have been called a Grand Am and the G5 a Sunbird.
    Pontiac shouldn't have been a full line automaker during this period...GM was hemorrhaging money, all they were becoming were Chevrolets w/ red gauges and vertical split grilles and some of the ugliest seats I've ever seen. That was a time for GM to consolidate and focus brands, leave Chevrolet/Cadillac to be full line automakers and use PBG to fill in the middle w/ niche vehicles to add in performance (Pontiac), near luxury (Buick), & whatever the hell w/ GMC.

    Pontiac would still be alive today had they just pared down and focused on the Solstice, Grand Prix (a named G8), and maybe the G6 Coupe, and sold in a dealership integrated w/ Buick and GMC.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    I don't recall anyone claiming Pontiac was murdered due to common GM parts. That discussion happened five or ten years ago.



    Funny about '90 Lumina Euros, eh? My wife had the full zoot optioned-to-the-max model. It had been all over the country and she drove it east when she was transferred. Her car was hit two or three times and had developed numerous problems. The most obvious was the dashboard was cracked like parched earth in August.

    She replaced her Lumina with a purple Intrepid and loved it. Replaced it unfortunately with her middle aged crazy car a '99 Sebring LXi IIRC. Rutt roe! That car was NOT an Intrepid or Concorde, it developed all sorts of issues including a sun roof that opened by itself on the interstate in the summer and no way to get it down. The seats hurt her back, there were numerous issues. One reason I say Chrysler should have kept the LH cars along with the LX, the Sebring and its Dodge cousin were not nearly as reliable as the big cars.

    What's that all got to do with the Pontiac Died thread? Just that customers come back when they get cars they like, and they're treated halfway humanely by the dealerships.


    When I shopped Chevys in the '90s, and I shopped lots of dealerships, the Chevy dealers were the absolute worst. Just dumb as low-IQ rocks and as useless as a government bureaucrat.
    Every sales guy was a grey half-dead 50-year-old home boy who wanted sticker price--"Hey, that's the price on the window, right?"-- and didn't know anything about anything other than perhaps what brand of gum he was chewing, or want to talk about anything.

    I don't know if one of those idiots could have GIVEN me a car, they were such schlubs. My Chrysler-Dodge guy was super cool, always on top of his game.

    That is how you move metal.
    Funny thing is that car was a lengthened Mitsubishi Eclipse right down to the interior design and engines. The sedan and convertible were based on the cloud car platform (Cirrus, Stratus, Breeze).
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by megeebee View Post
    I call Bull****.

    If they're making so much on them, then they'd bring new models sooner rather than later.

    It's because they don't want to spend the huge amount of money necessary to bring new models to market. What will the reason be when sales of the current cars start to melt down from sheer boredom? A platform that old can be "updated" only so many times. Ask Ford about Crown Victoria/Marquis/Town Car.
    Ok and if that's true and the cars continue selling well... so what? I've driven dozens of Camaro's and hell yeah they handle better than the Challenger but at the end of the day I don't have people flagging me down asking where I bought my car. The purple really draws attention and creates conversation and I love talking about cars. My Seville STS, Deville nor my Regal had that kind of effect. It has a sublime highway ride and can achieve 30MPG at 70MPH without breaking a sweat and there is enough room for me and three friends to stretch out.

    Of course if we were talking about a car being sold like the Charger/Challenger under the Chevrolet brand you would be making the same excuses. I've had three GM cars and quite frankly they were all pieces of ****. The Regal Turbo I had sounded like a squeaking mattress with 16k miles was the final straw and unless something terrible happens to my Charger I'll never buy another GM product again. I've tried getting my mom into a Navigator but she won't budge on her '16 Yukon Denali even though it's had transmission issues from the start.

    For the love of God PLEASE stop comparing the ancient, unsafe and outdated Panther platform to LX. FCA has updated the chassis twice and it's still modern enough to carry all the latest tech and safety features unlike the original Epsilon which wasn't design for built in Navigation or the W-Body which never drove that well to begin with. You're reaching sweetie.
    Last edited by ryannel2003; 04-30-2019 at 10:35 PM.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    I'd enjoy a Solstice. What a gem of a little car.
    "The Artist Formerly Known As Jesda"

  26. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to jesda1 For This Useful Post:

    Mr.Buttons (05-01-2019),richmond2000 (05-02-2019),ryannel2003 (05-01-2019)

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