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Thread: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

  1. #76
    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 rockyspaw's Avatar
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by ksr View Post
    Exactly right.

    The best thing about FCA is that they have one dealership, not counting Fiat and Alfa Romeo. Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, and Ram under one roof. They can have a Dodge with just two models because for practical purposes, C-J-D-R really aren't four brands, they're one brand.

    It's why the elimination of Pontiac (probably not GM's decision) was so stupid. By 2009, there were probably just a handful of standalone Pontiac dealers remaining. There were instead Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealers. Having just the G8 and Solstice could have held up Pontiac's end of the business, maybe adding a GTO or Firebird.

    Were it not for the collapse of 2008 and the elimination of Pontiac, a B-P-G dealership could have been a very desirable franchise.
    Whenever I take my G6 into the dealer for service I look around the showroom/lot for something...anything that interests me. Alas, there is no reason for me to return if/when I replace my G6 (which I really like, BTW). If they had only produced the Avista, they would have had me for another 8-10 years!
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  4. #77
    GMI Staff Member Premium Member NoStopN's Avatar
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by sdotjeezy View Post
    As far as a new Charger coming in 2020, personally...I think it'll be 2022 at the earliest, there's supposed to be a Charger ScatPack/SRT-392/Hellcat widebody coming later this year so I figure they'd at least keep the LX around for another 2 years.
    I think the last I heard was 2021, but it makes no sense to bring the Charger widebody for just 1 year. You know, kind of like the 2008 Magnum nose job & then the car was dropped for the Challenger. Somebody had to see the plan coming & should have asked "why bother?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ryannel2003 View Post
    Someone with inside news on Allpar said FCA pushed the redesign back a few more years because they are still making so much money on the cars. People love to comment about the discounts being thrown on them but that really only applies to V6's and low end 5.7's. I got $6k off the price of my Charger but at the same dealership you could only manage $2-3k on a 392 and I don't believe Hellcat's are being discounted much at all considering how 2015 models are going for around $45k after 4 years.
    Hmmm, making money on a paid for chassis. Where have I heard that before? Panther, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by sdotjeezy View Post
    Also, I had no idea they were still producing Journeys...What poor soul walks into a Dodge dealer and comes out w/ that?
    Maybe they fall into the same category as the LY cars? The vehicle R&D has been paid for many times over & they sell well enough to keep them. In all fairness, the Journey I had as a rental was a Crossroad trim (sounds mid-grade). It had some good stuff. Heated seats & steering wheel, leather seats, 8.4" screen. I was surprised that music could be played from an SD memory card. I tested that out also.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksr View Post
    I came pretty close to buying a G8.
    I was ready to buy the G8 ST. Then it got cancelled. Then Pontiac got cancelled. I felt like I got kicked twice.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by NoStopN View Post
    I was ready to buy the G8 ST. Then it got cancelled. Then Pontiac got cancelled. I felt like I got kicked twice.
    Likewise. And that G8 ST would still be in my driveway. I remain frustrated a decade later.
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  7. #79
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Premium Member Neanderthal's Avatar
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by ryannel2003 View Post
    There is a HUGE misunderstanding when it comes to the LX cars. If you all go check out some articles on Allpar you'll see when Chrysler was designing the original LH chassis back in the early 90's for Intrepid, Vision and Concorde it was also adaptable enough they could make it RWD. Daimler had some influence on the chassis no doubt but hearing people saying it was a full Mercedes design is straight up wrong.

    https://www.allpar.com/history/inter...-brown-lx.html

    "Rear-wheel drive cars had gotten started before the Mercedes deal [in 1998; the 300M appeared in 1999], but that really put a fire under them, because Mercedes, is very much rear-wheel drive."
    I really liked the LH cars. And yes, they were ground-up designed to be capable of AWD or RWD. The first LHs came out for MY 1993 so they predate the evil Hun influence by a good margin.
    The engine was longitudinal, not transverse, all ready for flexy-design. I had an Intrepid and three Concordes, my wife had an Intrepid that replaced her battered and bruised Lumina.

    I wish Chrysler had kept the LH cars when they started making the LX, I realize that's sacrilege but I think two full-size cars would have served them better than the less-than-excellent Sebring and its Dodge sibling.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdotjeezy View Post
    Thanks for posting this...the usual suspects will probably gloss over it and continue the same 'ol trope of it being an "old Mercedes platform".

    I read an earlier post claiming that the Dodge sold well because its on an old platform?!?!?! Doesn't make much sense to me...So the narrative is shifting to now a car sells well because it's on an old platform? I thought that people were more likely to buy a car if it had the latest and greatest architecture. I guess that's how you think when you're trying to play both sides of an argument just so you and your team can claim to be right. The fact of the matter is that the LX cars sell well in-spite-of their "ancient" underpinnings because to most, it doesn't matter how old the platform is as long as the car accomplishes it's intended mission.

    Dodge dying because the Durango is shifting to Ram? Last I checked all 4 brands (Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram) are sold out of the same dealership across the nation. All brands have a focus, so I don't equate focus w/ dying...I call it having a clear vision for each brand...I know, what a concept.

    As far as a new Charger coming in 2020, personally...I think it'll be 2022 at the earliest, there's supposed to be a Charger ScatPack/SRT-392/Hellcat widebody coming later this year so I figure they'd at least keep the LX around for another 2 years.

    With that said, this X-mas...it'll be a competition for by $$$s between the CT5 and a Plum Crazy 392 ScatPack Charger Widebody...may the best car win.
    Yeah, Dodge has (please excuse the use of this word which I dislike quite a bit) panache. In product, in names, in colors, in advertising, and especially in connecting with what people want. Dodge and Chrysler got he mojo, GM mostly doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrehotrods View Post
    And in hindsight, this is about where my falling out of love with GM started. Pontiacs have had a strong influence in my early love for cars, as my dad always seemed to have GTO's, and the Pontiacs always had way cooler interiors, especially the dashes. In particular, one of my favorite cars growing up was his Marina Turquoise 66 GTO, low mile car with original black interior. I guess I can't say I own mostly Pontiacs, but I own quite a few. Luckily I was able to add a 66 GTO to my future list, and fortunately it's a Marina Turquoise car as well, though this one is a little more desirable being a 4 speed, rally pack gauge car.

    It definitely doesn't get much better... aside from maybe the 67 GTO which I think was absolute design perfection, but the 66 is what I grew up with, and is my favorite. (not my car)
    That's a beautiful Goat. The first few years of GTO were extremely attractive, balls-out cars. And much to the suits' surprise and chagrin, once they hit the dealerships they sold like free money for a little while.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumpole View Post
    Sad but true. The DeLorean story was mine. I was at the old PMD headquarters on a hot summer afternoon in 1967 when John Z drove a Ferrari into the area behind the headquarters to swap it out for a Bonneville in order to take his then wife to a dinner at Bloomfield Hills CC. He chatted me up about the Ferrari. BTW- I don't think it was his. I think it was owned by GM Design and Bill Mitchell let him use it.
    After John Z left PMD for Chevrolet he was led astray by the Ad types and hence Southern California Girl Kelly Harmon. It didn't sit well with the wives when John Z got promoted to the 14th floor. John Z believed his press, out grew and left GM and the rest was history.
    Yeah, thanks for that great story. I can see old John Z pulling up to the CC in a freakin Ferrari. I can see the peeing-in-their-pants PO'd stiffs, and the steam coming out of their ears like Herman Munster used to do. Oh lord, to see that scene.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Listen I loved Pontiac just as much as the next guy in fact I grew up in a 6000 one of the best family cars we ever owned but the times change and GM was smart to pull the plug I agree with mbukukanyau look at Dodge now if GM kept Pontiac around same thing it would have had a long slow death just like Dodge.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    I really liked the LH cars. And yes, they were ground-up designed to be capable of AWD or RWD. The first LHs came out for MY 1993 so they predate the evil Hun influence by a good margin.
    The engine was longitudinal, not transverse, all ready for flexy-design. I had an Intrepid and three Concordes, my wife had an Intrepid that replaced her battered and bruised Lumina.

    I wish Chrysler had kept the LH cars when they started making the LX, I realize that's sacrilege but I think two full-size cars would have served them better than the less-than-excellent Sebring and its Dodge sibling.



    Yeah, Dodge has (please excuse the use of this word which I dislike quite a bit) panache. In product, in names, in colors, in advertising, and especially in connecting with what people want. Dodge and Chrysler got he mojo, GM mostly doesn't.



    That's a beautiful Goat. The first few years of GTO were extremely attractive, balls-out cars. And much to the suits' surprise and chagrin, once they hit the dealerships they sold like free money for a little while.

    While GM a customer continuously for 49 years, my wife and I bought a 1996 Dodge Intrepid ES and later, a 1998 Dodge Intrepid ES. The 1996 model replaced a 1990 Chevrolet Lumina Euro 4-door. The engine and transmission were replaced under warranty on the Euro, and the rear brakes repeatedly had to be service due to freezing brake calipers.

    The 1998 Intrepid was one of the best cars I have ever owned. Very roomy, very comfortable, very easy to drive - and a very good engine (3.2L V-e6).

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Tired of everyone stating Pontiac died because it shared parts. Hello! That was the way the manufacturing sector was going, sharing platform and motors. It's so common place today no one thinks about, but its what killed Pontiac? Please...........Come up with another excuse.

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    5.3 Liter Vortec V8 sdotjeezy's Avatar
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by LONGHORN View Post
    Tired of everyone stating Pontiac died because it shared parts. Hello! That was the way the manufacturing sector was going, sharing platform and motors. It's so common place today no one thinks about, but its what killed Pontiac? Please...........Come up with another excuse.
    Ok...what killed Pontiac then?
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by LONGHORN View Post
    Tired of everyone stating Pontiac died because it shared parts. Hello! That was the way the manufacturing sector was going, sharing platform and motors. It's so common place today no one thinks about, but its what killed Pontiac? Please...........Come up with another excuse.
    I don't recall anyone claiming Pontiac was murdered due to common GM parts. That discussion happened five or ten years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1999 White C5 Coupe View Post
    While GM a customer continuously for 49 years, my wife and I bought a 1996 Dodge Intrepid ES and later, a 1998 Dodge Intrepid ES. The 1996 model replaced a 1990 Chevrolet Lumina Euro 4-door. The engine and transmission were replaced under warranty on the Euro, and the rear brakes repeatedly had to be service due to freezing brake calipers.

    The 1998 Intrepid was one of the best cars I have ever owned. Very roomy, very comfortable, very easy to drive - and a very good engine (3.2L V-e6).
    Funny about '90 Lumina Euros, eh? My wife had the full zoot optioned-to-the-max model. It had been all over the country and she drove it east when she was transferred. Her car was hit two or three times and had developed numerous problems. The most obvious was the dashboard was cracked like parched earth in August.

    She replaced her Lumina with a purple Intrepid and loved it. Replaced it unfortunately with her middle aged crazy car a '99 Sebring LXi IIRC. Rutt roe! That car was NOT an Intrepid or Concorde, it developed all sorts of issues including a sun roof that opened by itself on the interstate in the summer and no way to get it down. The seats hurt her back, there were numerous issues. One reason I say Chrysler should have kept the LH cars along with the LX, the Sebring and its Dodge cousin were not nearly as reliable as the big cars.

    What's that all got to do with the Pontiac Died thread? Just that customers come back when they get cars they like, and they're treated halfway humanely by the dealerships.


    When I shopped Chevys in the '90s, and I shopped lots of dealerships, the Chevy dealers were the absolute worst. Just dumb as low-IQ rocks and as useless as a government bureaucrat.
    Every sales guy was a grey half-dead 50-year-old home boy who wanted sticker price--"Hey, that's the price on the window, right?"-- and didn't know anything about anything other than perhaps what brand of gum he was chewing, or want to talk about anything.

    I don't know if one of those idiots could have GIVEN me a car, they were such schlubs. My Chrysler-Dodge guy was super cool, always on top of his game.

    That is how you move metal.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by LONGHORN View Post
    Tired of everyone stating Pontiac died because it shared parts. Hello! That was the way the manufacturing sector was going, sharing platform and motors. It's so common place today no one thinks about, but it's what killed Pontiac? Please...........Come up with another excuse.
    IMHO the SHARED parts DID NOT kill pontiac BUT the shared WHOLE cars designed with NO "personality" as they have to "plug in" to EVERY BRAND

    IMHO the G8 was an awesome car BUT was NOT an AWESOME PONTIAC and would have made a Chevrolet Lumina OR a SWB Caprice
    I always felt the PONCHO nose was more "styled" then the rest of the car and the "milder" HOLDEN version looked better on the car

    IMHO the BIG ISSUE is the LOSS of "soul" OR "passion" every modern GM creation is IMHO "good enough" OR "meets the spreadsheet"

    FCA "gets it" better they make models that appear to be designed / released because someone PUSHED for it

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    I still think GM needs to get down to Chevy, Cadillac, and GMC. GMC should develop a new rugged utility persona to take on Jeep and Ford while Cadillac and Chevy can easily absorb any remaining Buick crossover customers. Buick can continue to prosper in China. But I imagine it's probably cheaper to just reduce Buick to two or three utilities while GMC carries the load.

    But can you imagine GM trying to make Pontiac, Saturn, or Oldsmobile work today? That would be a nearly impossible challenge, especially now.
    Last edited by BORG; 04-30-2019 at 03:34 PM.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by BORG View Post
    I still think GM needs to get down to Chevy, Cadillac, and GMC. Buick can continue to prosper in China.
    I agree, without Opel, Buick should just be China only, despite Envision sales, an all China imported Buick will just collapse US sales. They couldn't do Cadillac right even with mostly right people in place, they sure as hell can't do a completely from scratch Buick.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by BORG View Post
    I still think GM needs to get down to Chevy, Cadillac, and GMC. GMC should develop a new rugged utility persona to take on Jeep and Ford while Cadillac and Chevy can easily absorb any remaining Buick crossover customers. Buick can continue to prosper in China. But I imagine it's probably cheaper to just reduce Buick to two or three utilities while GMC carries the load.

    But can you imagine GM trying to make Pontiac, Saturn, or Oldsmobile work today? That would be a nearly impossible challenge, especially now.
    Truth be told...GM should just pare down to just Chevy and Cadillac. A car-less Buick is pointless and redundant if Cadillac is going to chase after entry level lux sales. GMC....well without a Buick to augment the showroom, what'll be the point of having standalone GMC dealers?

    Chevrolet can probably pickup lost customers on Buick's low end via injecting some style into their CUVs...and Cadillac can continue to do what they're doing chasing down market volume. All of this should've really happened back when GM shuttered Pontiac/Saturn/Hummer.

    They'll be able to retain some of the GMC/Buick customers by having a "sorry I cratered your resale" incentive on trade ins for Chevys & Cadillacs.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by LONGHORN View Post
    Tired of everyone stating Pontiac died because it shared parts. Hello! That was the way the manufacturing sector was going, sharing platform and motors. It's so common place today no one thinks about, but its what killed Pontiac? Please...........Come up with another excuse.
    Since you no givie a reply...I'll show you what killed Pontiac:







    These gems come courtesy of your "excitement" division.
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