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Thread: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

  1. #31
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Premium Member mbukukanyau's Avatar
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by NoStopN View Post
    Check out the thread about the Challenger outselling the Camaro. Yeah, Dodge is dying. Charger is due for it's redesign next year (gotten pushed back a few times) & they still are the top selling large car. The only thing we are still waiting on was the smaller sedan that is supposed to on a RWD chassis. FCA seems hesitant to return a push for Chrysler to have SRT products like AMG or M models.
    Its easy to outsell Camaro when you are on an old Mercedes benz chassis you received free tooling for back in early 2000's. Where are they going to build the next generation on? Maserati or Alfa Romeo Chassis? The Maserati RWD chassis are heavy pigs, performance will suffer, plus they need extensive re-engineering to bring in them into the 21st century and to take Chrysler motors and parts..

    Anyways, we shall see.

    I worry for Dodge.

    Will they be able to discount if they give them new chassis from Italy?

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    Dodge is dying, robbed of Ram, now the Durango is going to be part of Ram, what’s left? Let’s be honest
    Quote Originally Posted by NoStopN View Post
    Check out the thread about the Challenger outselling the Camaro. Yeah, Dodge is dying. Charger is due for it's redesign next year (gotten pushed back a few times) & they still are the top selling large car. The only thing we are still waiting on was the smaller sedan that is supposed to on a RWD chassis. FCA seems hesitant to return a push for Chrysler to have SRT products like AMG or M models.
    Did U understand what he was saying? I don't think it was a jab at them, but a truth. In reality, like Chrysler.. now one minivan and a 20 year old car, may be on borrowed time, .. I truly believe that Dodge doesn't make changes soon, it too will go. Jeep and Ram are FCA's American profit makers.. and BTW.. where is it said that by selling 1348 more in a quarter, or 449 a month is a serious victory when; 1) the Challenger has had massive discounts, 2) They approve almost anyone for a Chrysler loan, 3) Dodge Challenger has a few things the Camaro (and Mustang) don't like AWD, 4) Neither Mustang or Chally have on lot competion.. which I know is an insane observation that is weird to even bring up. Also.. Camaro sales are on the uptick, while Chally sales are on the down
    My current crop is 2016 CTSV Fully loaded, 2016 Corvette Z06 3LT fully loaded, 2015 GMC Yukon SLT Fully loaded, 2014 Impala LTZ, fully loaded, 2011 Chevy Cruze (kid's) LTZ, fully loaded, 1966 Chevy Impala SS 396 4spd Muncie 3.73 gears, 2003 Harley Softail with Rinehart exhaust Hidden Content

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    I don't think it's an outrageous notion that the future of Dodge is in question. FCA is stripping models away as fast as they can. Ram is gone, the Durango is next. What's left? Is the Journey still a Dodge (does anyone care? should it be?)? So they have Challenger and Charger.

    With the current state of Camaro sales, outselling it isn't really that great an achievement for the Challenger. It's historically noteworthy I suppose. But is, "Hey, we're outselling a car with sinking sales that may not itself have much of a future!" really a rallying cry?

    They've done a wonderful job keeping Challenger and Charger up to date. But at some point, they'll need a new platform. You can only work so many miracles. Are the Charger and Challenger sales going to be enough to justify to FCA the investment in an all new car? I think that's very much up in the air. With the current market, those billions might seem a lot better spent on still more SUVs and CUVs. And they still seem to harbor these big [expensive] dreams for Fiat and Alfa-Romeo.
    Drives a 2019 Cadillac ATS Coupe and a 1988 Pontiac Trans Am GTA.

    In the past, I've had a 5th gen Camaro, a CTS sedan and coupe, two 3rd gen Firebird Formulas, a convertible 4th gen Trans Am, a Reatta, a couple of Monte Carlos, an Avenger coupe, a couple of Cavalier hatchbacks, a Saturn SC1, and a Cherokee.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by ksr View Post
    I don't think it's an outrageous notion that the future of Dodge is in question. FCA is stripping models away as fast as they can. Ram is gone, the Durango is next. What's left? Is the Journey still a Dodge (does anyone care? should it be?)? So they have Challenger and Charger.

    With the current state of Camaro sales, outselling it isn't really that great an achievement for the Challenger. It's historically noteworthy I suppose. But is, "Hey, we're outselling a car with sinking sales that may not itself have much of a future!" really a rallying cry?

    They've done a wonderful job keeping Challenger and Charger up to date. But at some point, they'll need a new platform. You can only work so many miracles. Are the Charger and Challenger sales going to be enough to justify to FCA the investment in an all new car? I think that's very much up in the air. With the current market, those billions might seem a lot better spent on still more SUVs and CUVs. And they still seem to harbor these big [expensive] dreams for Fiat and Alfa-Romeo.
    I could see them, for marketing reasons, changing Dodge's name to HellCat or SRT. I'm dead serious on that too.

    To the sales victory for the quarter.. like the Silverado vs Ram.. I'm gonna wait this one out to see what Q2 looks like. GM could get as aggressive (as we know they will) on price.. and start doing some promotion for both. I really say again that I wish Chevy would simply bring back the SS, even on the Alpha-L platform, but obviously restyle it and fit it with a full boat of engine choices.. 2.0L, 3.6L, 6.2L and S/C 6.2L, and rename it Impala.
    My current crop is 2016 CTSV Fully loaded, 2016 Corvette Z06 3LT fully loaded, 2015 GMC Yukon SLT Fully loaded, 2014 Impala LTZ, fully loaded, 2011 Chevy Cruze (kid's) LTZ, fully loaded, 1966 Chevy Impala SS 396 4spd Muncie 3.73 gears, 2003 Harley Softail with Rinehart exhaust Hidden Content

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    The promise from some at GM at the time was, with Pontiac gone, it would give Chevrolet the opportunity to offer more performane and sporty models. Still waiting.
    Pony Car: an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image and an available V8.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by Z284ever View Post
    The promise from some at GM at the time was, with Pontiac gone, it would give Chevrolet the opportunity to offer more performane and sporty models. Still waiting.
    You and I refused to purchase the Chevrolet SS

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by CMiatso DaBang View Post
    Did U understand what he was saying? I don't think it was a jab at them, but a truth. In reality, like Chrysler.. now one minivan and a 20 year old car, may be on borrowed time, .. I truly believe that Dodge doesn't make changes soon, it too will go.
    I understand what he's saying. Perhaps FCA is feeling fine about spending a nickel here & dime there to keep the old dinosaurs going. As long as profit is there & there is no government mandate that it will fail, who says that you have to change very much? I do see the push for AR & Fiat, but AR has been positioned as a higher price level car that won't come close to the sales of the LY cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksr View Post
    A) I don't think it's an outrageous notion that the future of Dodge is in question. FCA is stripping models away as fast as they can. Ram is gone, the Durango is next. What's left? Is the Journey still a Dodge (does anyone care? should it be?)? So they have Challenger and Charger.

    B) They've done a wonderful job keeping Challenger and Charger up to date. But at some point, they'll need a new platform. You can only work so many miracles. Are the Charger and Challenger sales going to be enough to justify to FCA the investment in an all new car? I think that's very much up in the air.
    -A) The Journey is still in the Dodge camp & after driving one for over 2 weeks when my Ram was in the shop, that is a vehicle that needs to be redesigned 3 years ago. The miracles have run out for the Journey. From the info we have, I wouldn't be too surprised if the Durango moves over to the platform that the Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer will be on, which itself is based on the 2019 Ram 1500. This leaves the Journey in limbo. Either it needs to move to the Pacifica platform (I don't see that happening) or the Guilia platform. If the Guilia can spawn the Stelvio, it was already planned to carry a revived (again) Avenger & could spin the next Journey from it. If the market is so hot for CUVs, FCA should probably put the Avenger idea on hold (they might have already) & just bring out the next Journey on the Guilia platform. The plan long ago was supposed to make all Dodge vehicles RWD. This is the logical direction for that.
    -B) The Charger is already deep in development, & it would make no sense to us for them to kill it with millions already invested. A Charger would be easier to justify bringing to market than a next gen Challenger. The Guilia chassis is/was supposed to be flexible enough to support the next Charger. The 4-door practicality is easier to give the green light to. Even if the next Chally is supposed to go to Guilia, it would shrink to the approximate size of the Mustang.

    Quote Originally Posted by CMiatso DaBang View Post
    I could see them, for marketing reasons, changing Dodge's name to HellCat or SRT. I'm dead serious on that too.
    They've been there, done that & it crashed hard. So SRT was re-integrated into the Dodge range. I think SRT could have remained across the full FCA lineup, but they decided to give the Jeep Hellcat model its own model name & took a performance 300 model off the table.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    Its easy to outsell Camaro when you are on an old Mercedes benz chassis you received free tooling for back in early 2000's.
    Daimler charged Chrysler full development costs for the LX platform- and some sources say they also charged 'royalties'. I believe the technical term is 'industrial rape'.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    In US Congressional hearings on December 2, 2008, General Motors had announced its intentions to focus on their four core brands (Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, GMC), with the sale, consolidation, or closure of Saturn and the remaining brands (Pontiac, Hummer, and Saab, with Oldsmobile having already discontinued production since 2004).[10] General Motors chairman and former CEO Rick Wagoner announced during a news conference on February 17, 2009, that Saturn would remain in operation through the end of the planned life cycle for all Saturn products (2010–2011).

    In February 2009, GM declared its intent to part with this brand by closing or selling the division, either to investors or to dealers, as part of restructuring plans dependent upon the receipt of a second round of government loans ("bailout" funding).[11] It was the third such action for GM in the 21st century, following those of Oldsmobile, which ceased production in 2004, and Pontiac, which ended production of the 2010 model year by the end of 2009.[12]

    General Motors announced in June 2009 that it was selling the brand to Penske Automotive Group.[13] The arrangement was similar to the deal under which Penske distributes Daimler AG's Smart Car in the United States.[14] Penske was not planning to buy the factories and would eventually have to contract other car companies to build cars sold as Saturns. GM would have built the AURA, VUE, and Outlook for Penske for two years. To replace GM as the brand's manufacturer, Penske was in discussions with several global automakers, including Renault Samsung Motors of Korea, and the Renault-Nissan Alliance.

    Wikinews has related news: Penske Auto selected to buy General Motors' Saturn unit
    By the end of 2009, GM closed all of its 46 Saturn dealerships in Canada, even for Saturn dealerships also selling Saab vehicles. GM and Penske decided that they could no longer make a business case to distribute Saturn vehicles in Canada after the sale of the brand. Saturn's customer service, parts, and warranty operations moved to other GM dealerships in Canada.[15]

    2009: Sale falls through

    This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (December 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
    On September 30, 2009, Penske had ended its deal with General Motors. The deal between Penske and General Motors had ended because of Penske not finding another manufacturer to buy the Saturn brand. At one point Penske was in talks with some car manufacturers including Renault Samsung Motors and the Renault-Nissan Alliance, however talks with the Renault-Nissan Alliance had ended mainly because of the objections from the Nissan part of the alliance. There was also another part of the deal between Penske and GM was for GM to continue to make the AURA, the Outlook, and the VUE until 2011, and then another manufacturer would take over, but since Penske didn't find another car manufacturer that was willing to continue production of Saturn vehicles, the deal between Penske and GM had ended. As a result of this, General Motors had announced that the Saturn brand will be discontinued in 2010, and that all Saturn dealerships will be closed by October 31, 2010, or until all of their inventory was sold.

    In February 2010, as a means of customer retention, GM announced it was offering existing Saturn owners up to US$2,000 in incentives on purchasing a new Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick or GMC vehicle until March 31. Customers were required to have owned their Saturns for at least six months and were not required to trade them in to be eligible for the incentives.[16]

    Saturn Authorized Service Providers have been introduced since the closing of the Saturn brand. Most Saturn Authorized Service Providers are at Chevrolet and Cadillac dealers. Saturn Authorized Service Providers are responsible for all aspects of service, including warranty service, on Saturn vehicles.

    Saturn's last vehicle models were the AURA, the Outlook, the Sky, and the VUE. GM had continued to produce the AURA, the Outlook, the Sky, and the VUE into the 2010 model year. The 2010 model year Saturn models were sold only to rental car companies. All sales of new Saturn vehicles had ended in 2009 however.

    In 2012, General Motors had reintroduced the discontinued Saturn VUE as the 2012 Chevrolet Captiva Sport. The Chevrolet Captiva Sport was mostly unchanged from the discontinued Saturn VUE. However, the Captiva Sport did not have a hybrid version available, when the VUE did.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Corporation

    Quote Originally Posted by 09W View Post
    Daimler charged Chrysler full development costs for the LX platform- and some sources say they also charged 'royalties'. I believe the technical term is 'industrial rape'.
    Booby Eaton is an evil man. He took a profitable corporation and sold it to the Huns to loot, pillage, and rape.

    And, back to Pontiac, which I think this thread is about...If, if, if DeLorean had stuck it out in the stifling bureaucracy that was and is General Motors, who knows where they'd be now? He was supposedly on a fast track to CEO status. A damn sight different wiring from most of the suits.

    Alas, it was not to be. For want of a nail, a shoe was lost...


    I see that's attributed to Franklin. Who knows the real story?
    “For the want of a nail the shoe was lost,
    For the want of a shoe the horse was lost,
    For the want of a horse the rider was lost,
    For the want of a rider the battle was lost,
    For the want of a battle the kingdom was lost,
    And all for the want of a horseshoe-nail.”

    ― Benjamin Franklin
    Last edited by Neanderthal; 04-28-2019 at 12:06 PM.
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    GMI Camaro Forum Moderator Premium Member Z284ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Z284ever View Post
    The promise from some at GM at the time was, with Pontiac gone, it would give Chevrolet the opportunity to offer more performane and sporty models. Still waiting.
    You and I refused to purchase the Chevrolet SS
    I’m sitting my SS right now!
    Pony Car: an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image and an available V8.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by Z284ever View Post
    The promise from some at GM at the time was, with Pontiac gone, it would give Chevrolet the opportunity to offer more performane and sporty models. Still waiting.
    And that right there just goes to show how misguided and befuddled GM is... but... the SUV/CUV craze that has meanwhile swept the nation hasn't helped matters to that respect at all.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    You and I refused to purchase the Chevrolet SS
    Ummmmmmm
    Who the hell approved this abomination? Hidden Content

    I bet it was some dumbarse in Detroit Hidden Content

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by Z284ever View Post
    I’m sitting my SS right now!
    Forgive him, he bought two Equinoxi one regular sized (Equiniox)and the other the is the extended version (Traverse) believing that the "SS" wouldn't be "practical" enough to do light family duty.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by 1958carnut View Post
    And that right there just goes to show how misguided and befuddled GM is... but... the SUV/CUV craze that has meanwhile swept the nation hasn't helped matters to that respect at all.
    GM isn't even doing sporty version of it's CUVs...Unless you count the Redlines as sporty. If I want something spicier than GM's offerings I have to go to another manufacturer as someone who used to rock hard with GM,why do I have to do that?
    Last edited by Mr.Buttons; 04-28-2019 at 03:05 PM.

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